1 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:09,140 so my guest today is none other than 2 00:00:14,870 --> 00:00:12,690 Mike Cleveland who is just an awesome 3 00:00:17,090 --> 00:00:14,880 guy who we're just talking about we'd 4 00:00:21,439 --> 00:00:17,100 known each other for a long time and 5 00:00:25,609 --> 00:00:21,449 mike has gone on to do just some amazing 6 00:00:29,630 --> 00:00:25,619 amazing things very excited for what 7 00:00:35,389 --> 00:00:29,640 he's done and it all centers around this 8 00:00:38,780 --> 00:00:35,399 idea of owls and UFOs and he's written a 9 00:00:42,830 --> 00:00:38,790 couple of very well-received books that 10 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:42,840 have really changed the landscape of not 11 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:45,930 just UF ology although I hate that term 12 00:00:54,709 --> 00:00:50,489 but in general the whole idea of what 13 00:00:57,380 --> 00:00:54,719 this extended consciousness experience 14 00:00:59,540 --> 00:00:57,390 contact thing that people are having how 15 00:01:02,150 --> 00:00:59,550 that might tie into these things that 16 00:01:06,410 --> 00:01:02,160 we're seeing in the sky and just a whole 17 00:01:08,210 --> 00:01:06,420 lot more so Mike is our guest let's get 18 00:01:09,020 --> 00:01:08,220 him on the screen Mike thanks so much 19 00:01:11,300 --> 00:01:09,030 for joining me 20 00:01:14,270 --> 00:01:11,310 I'm it's my honor I'm delightful to be 21 00:01:16,940 --> 00:01:14,280 here well on about honor that might be a 22 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:16,950 little bit too much so give people the 23 00:01:20,450 --> 00:01:19,290 general rundown we're going to be 24 00:01:23,530 --> 00:01:20,460 talking about it from a bunch of 25 00:01:27,830 --> 00:01:23,540 different angles but a little bit of 26 00:01:33,170 --> 00:01:27,840 timeline chronology who you are how this 27 00:01:34,819 --> 00:01:33,180 thing came unfolded and what you do whoo 28 00:01:36,260 --> 00:01:34,829 okay so twelve years ago 29 00:01:38,149 --> 00:01:36,270 I was leading this completely different 30 00:01:43,219 --> 00:01:38,159 life I was working for an outdoor school 31 00:01:46,130 --> 00:01:43,229 I was living out west I had I had these 32 00:01:49,310 --> 00:01:46,140 experiences in my youth that sound just 33 00:01:52,730 --> 00:01:49,320 like UFO contact missing time seeing 34 00:01:54,679 --> 00:01:52,740 aliens up my window in the yard seeing 35 00:01:57,620 --> 00:01:54,689 UFOs and a handful of other things but 36 00:01:59,330 --> 00:01:57,630 there was a few core memories that I had 37 00:02:00,920 --> 00:01:59,340 and I wasn't gonna go there I wasn't 38 00:02:02,420 --> 00:02:00,930 look at him I wasn't gonna deal with 39 00:02:04,550 --> 00:02:02,430 them I could talk about him I could tell 40 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:04,560 him about him in like a you know we're 41 00:02:07,250 --> 00:02:06,090 on the campfire around the dinner table 42 00:02:08,690 --> 00:02:07,260 or something there's an interesting 43 00:02:10,460 --> 00:02:08,700 story and I tell a story and then I 44 00:02:15,500 --> 00:02:10,470 would go interesting I wouldn't go 45 00:02:18,920 --> 00:02:15,510 beyond that and I knew there was this 46 00:02:21,050 --> 00:02:18,930 little simmering fire in there so so I 47 00:02:22,640 --> 00:02:21,060 had been working as an illustrator I've 48 00:02:24,920 --> 00:02:22,650 been doing some outdoor work teaching in 49 00:02:28,100 --> 00:02:24,930 the mountains and I had been doing 50 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:28,110 cartoon work for some instructional 51 00:02:33,310 --> 00:02:30,330 books and skiing and backpacking and 52 00:02:35,630 --> 00:02:33,320 such now went camping for one night and 53 00:02:37,729 --> 00:02:35,640 12 years ago the line because at that 54 00:02:38,990 --> 00:02:37,739 story is the camping story is it is an 55 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:39,000 amazing story I know you've told that 56 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:41,250 many times but I'm gonna ask you to kind 57 00:02:45,530 --> 00:02:43,290 of tell it again in a minute but I think 58 00:02:47,390 --> 00:02:45,540 the other interesting thing and I don't 59 00:02:49,820 --> 00:02:47,400 want to kind of push you into anything 60 00:02:51,380 --> 00:02:49,830 that you're too uncomfortable talking 61 00:02:52,970 --> 00:02:51,390 about at this point at this point I've 62 00:02:55,550 --> 00:02:52,980 like there you're gonna have to try hard 63 00:02:57,350 --> 00:02:55,560 to get me to it unless I go so now 64 00:03:00,710 --> 00:02:57,360 doesn't say you're a super open guy and 65 00:03:03,830 --> 00:03:00,720 I really really really respect your 66 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:03,840 vulnerability around this topic and I 67 00:03:10,610 --> 00:03:08,250 think it's been such a tremendous gift 68 00:03:12,620 --> 00:03:10,620 for a lot of people for you to be so 69 00:03:15,170 --> 00:03:12,630 open and to be so vulnerable and I guess 70 00:03:17,569 --> 00:03:15,180 what I'm alluding to is your life wasn't 71 00:03:19,850 --> 00:03:17,579 exactly clicking in a lot of ways so you 72 00:03:20,690 --> 00:03:19,860 love how you say you know I was there at 73 00:03:23,990 --> 00:03:20,700 the dinner table 74 00:03:27,949 --> 00:03:24,000 you know Thanksgiving table talking 75 00:03:29,690 --> 00:03:27,959 about this stuff but deep down I was 76 00:03:31,490 --> 00:03:29,700 hurting in some ways that I couldn't 77 00:03:33,949 --> 00:03:31,500 quite figure out couldn't quite connect 78 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:33,959 and do you want to speak to that at all 79 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:37,290 so so I suffered from severe clinical 80 00:03:42,650 --> 00:03:40,410 depression for the first bout was when I 81 00:03:46,479 --> 00:03:42,660 was 12 years old I remember it and it 82 00:03:48,220 --> 00:03:46,489 lasted it was debilitating 83 00:03:49,209 --> 00:03:48,230 and I mean I've no problem talking about 84 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:49,219 this I've talked about it with other 85 00:03:52,809 --> 00:03:50,810 folks and I've people have invited me on 86 00:03:55,780 --> 00:03:52,819 podcast to talk about my history of 87 00:03:59,380 --> 00:03:55,790 depression so it was brutal debilitating 88 00:04:01,899 --> 00:03:59,390 in 1992-93 89 00:04:07,059 --> 00:04:01,909 I would have been 30 years old and 55 90 00:04:08,559 --> 00:04:07,069 now I'll be 56 and two weeks so I had 91 00:04:11,500 --> 00:04:08,569 that and it would go I went in and out I 92 00:04:13,929 --> 00:04:11,510 was I did I worked with medications I 93 00:04:15,849 --> 00:04:13,939 worked with therapy surprisingly four 94 00:04:19,569 --> 00:04:15,859 years ago I did a past life regression 95 00:04:21,129 --> 00:04:19,579 and and went and examined a past life in 96 00:04:23,290 --> 00:04:21,139 this traumatic event in my past life 97 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:23,300 kind of revealed itself we don't need to 98 00:04:26,950 --> 00:04:25,250 go into it but I don't know if it's real 99 00:04:29,020 --> 00:04:26,960 I don't know I was presented with this 100 00:04:31,089 --> 00:04:29,030 kind of collection of little snapshots 101 00:04:32,230 --> 00:04:31,099 and I sat up in the chair after the 102 00:04:35,110 --> 00:04:32,240 session was over and I was like I'm 103 00:04:37,510 --> 00:04:35,120 cured and I and I haven't been and I 104 00:04:39,850 --> 00:04:37,520 haven't been depressed in any kind of 105 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:39,860 meaningful way since then so I don't 106 00:04:42,700 --> 00:04:41,210 know whether I'm cured or not but so yes 107 00:04:44,860 --> 00:04:42,710 so I have a history of depression and 108 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:44,870 that um and at the outdoor work and 109 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:46,610 being outside and the physical aspect of 110 00:04:50,350 --> 00:04:47,930 all that stuff was surprisingly 111 00:04:52,899 --> 00:04:50,360 therapeutic too so I think I migrated to 112 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:52,909 that specifically before the the 113 00:04:57,700 --> 00:04:55,370 therapeutic quality of being outside and 114 00:04:59,350 --> 00:04:57,710 doing all the hard physical work let me 115 00:05:02,290 --> 00:04:59,360 jump in there for a minute because you 116 00:05:04,689 --> 00:05:02,300 just threw a curveball I knew I was I 117 00:05:07,180 --> 00:05:04,699 was how else could I do so hey man I 118 00:05:08,740 --> 00:05:07,190 appreciate it I love curveballs I mean 119 00:05:10,689 --> 00:05:08,750 that's what I think well like I said 120 00:05:13,230 --> 00:05:10,699 this troop the truth pump thing that's 121 00:05:15,399 --> 00:05:13,240 what it's about to me is not being 122 00:05:18,460 --> 00:05:15,409 scripted not knowing where you're gonna 123 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:18,470 go because we don't know we're going I 124 00:05:24,129 --> 00:05:21,530 mean that is really your story in in the 125 00:05:25,719 --> 00:05:24,139 broader sense is being open to kind of 126 00:05:27,879 --> 00:05:25,729 following these different paths but I 127 00:05:32,499 --> 00:05:27,889 digress because here's the curveball you 128 00:05:33,610 --> 00:05:32,509 throw me is past life regression somehow 129 00:05:37,390 --> 00:05:33,620 unlocks 130 00:05:39,159 --> 00:05:37,400 a key for depression man we've heard 131 00:05:42,159 --> 00:05:39,169 that before I've heard that too many 132 00:05:45,659 --> 00:05:42,169 times to dismiss it but the other story 133 00:05:50,050 --> 00:05:45,669 I've heard is abduction experiences 134 00:05:54,909 --> 00:05:50,060 repressed unexamined can also contribute 135 00:05:56,860 --> 00:05:54,919 to depression have you how do you how do 136 00:05:58,570 --> 00:05:56,870 you put those two together well I met 137 00:05:59,740 --> 00:05:58,580 with with Budd Hopkins and other 138 00:06:02,080 --> 00:05:59,750 therapists 139 00:06:04,630 --> 00:06:02,090 and I'll tell you you sit across the I 140 00:06:07,060 --> 00:06:04,640 mean I've met with actually some I met 141 00:06:09,070 --> 00:06:07,070 with bud and Leo sprinkle and Dave 142 00:06:10,300 --> 00:06:09,080 Jacobs and and I was doing a lot of just 143 00:06:11,650 --> 00:06:10,310 sort of research I was reaching out to 144 00:06:12,670 --> 00:06:11,660 these people I wanted to just talk to 145 00:06:13,270 --> 00:06:12,680 him I wanted to talk to as many people 146 00:06:16,270 --> 00:06:13,280 as I could 147 00:06:18,280 --> 00:06:16,280 so yes the the the my history depression 148 00:06:20,710 --> 00:06:18,290 I want to be very cautious say that you 149 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:20,720 know I can't trace that back to UFO 150 00:06:25,420 --> 00:06:22,370 contact because it's it runs in my 151 00:06:26,770 --> 00:06:25,430 family also and if you talk to someone 152 00:06:29,950 --> 00:06:26,780 like Dave Jacobs he would say that uh 153 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:29,960 but UFO contact runs in fact like I kind 154 00:06:35,290 --> 00:06:32,690 of interrupted you in your telling of 155 00:06:37,030 --> 00:06:35,300 this because I had to jump to who had to 156 00:06:40,660 --> 00:06:37,040 jump to the past life thing yeah well 157 00:06:43,180 --> 00:06:40,670 yeah and cool cool stuff but back to 158 00:06:47,140 --> 00:06:43,190 this story you're camping story it's 159 00:06:50,170 --> 00:06:47,150 just purely amazing and it's so human 160 00:06:57,010 --> 00:06:50,180 personal kind of thing please tell 161 00:06:59,920 --> 00:06:57,020 people as 12 years ago 2006 I was living 162 00:07:02,290 --> 00:06:59,930 out west and I was at I'm doing a lot of 163 00:07:04,450 --> 00:07:02,300 camping such a little town and community 164 00:07:05,740 --> 00:07:04,460 I lived in is full of you know crunchy 165 00:07:06,130 --> 00:07:05,750 hippies that were out camping all the 166 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:06,140 time 167 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:08,090 so I met someone I said let's go out for 168 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:10,010 one night she said sure this was not 169 00:07:15,010 --> 00:07:12,050 unusual in that kind of culture and so 170 00:07:16,210 --> 00:07:15,020 we went out for one night and it was a 171 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:16,220 beautiful night in calm we didn't take 172 00:07:18,310 --> 00:07:17,810 any tent just we're gonna sleep under 173 00:07:19,990 --> 00:07:18,320 the stars 174 00:07:22,540 --> 00:07:20,000 we went high in the mountains we're 175 00:07:24,550 --> 00:07:22,550 sitting at a big flat rock I'm making 176 00:07:26,020 --> 00:07:24,560 dinner and a little camp stove and her 177 00:07:29,110 --> 00:07:26,030 name is Kristin and she said something 178 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:29,120 and I was like this is I'm impressed she 179 00:07:32,140 --> 00:07:30,530 just said something I was like wow wait 180 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:32,150 a minute I did not expect that to come 181 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:33,770 out of you and and I and I really 182 00:07:39,070 --> 00:07:36,890 couldn't remember it was at the time but 183 00:07:41,850 --> 00:07:39,080 right in that moment and I will flew 184 00:07:44,110 --> 00:07:41,860 over her and then a second album and 185 00:07:46,270 --> 00:07:44,120 then a third I'll and for the next 186 00:07:48,700 --> 00:07:46,280 couple of hours as the Sun said and the 187 00:07:49,650 --> 00:07:48,710 stars came out we were watching these 188 00:07:52,450 --> 00:07:49,660 three owls 189 00:07:53,470 --> 00:07:52,460 it was literally wasn't you lying flat 190 00:07:55,570 --> 00:07:53,480 on her back and you'd look up at the 191 00:07:58,870 --> 00:07:55,580 Scott stars beautiful rocky mountain 192 00:08:01,990 --> 00:07:58,880 high elevation environment and these 193 00:08:03,490 --> 00:08:02,000 owls would just swoop over you and this 194 00:08:06,060 --> 00:08:03,500 stars would be blotted out for one 195 00:08:09,219 --> 00:08:06,070 second completely silent was magical and 196 00:08:10,810 --> 00:08:09,229 numb we had this cool night out and when 197 00:08:12,940 --> 00:08:10,820 a couple days later I said let's let's 198 00:08:14,620 --> 00:08:12,950 do this one more time she said great 199 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:14,630 so four days later we went out and we 200 00:08:18,190 --> 00:08:15,890 did the same thing we went out a 201 00:08:20,410 --> 00:08:18,200 different spot in the mountains for one 202 00:08:22,270 --> 00:08:20,420 night and it was a little colder so that 203 00:08:23,770 --> 00:08:22,280 night we had a shelter we had a tent 204 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:23,780 with us that night we said let's walk up 205 00:08:26,860 --> 00:08:25,370 to that hilltop and warm up because it's 206 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:26,870 kind of cold so we walked up to the 207 00:08:30,340 --> 00:08:28,010 hilltop and we get to the top of the 208 00:08:32,260 --> 00:08:30,350 hill and watch the sunset and in our 209 00:08:34,030 --> 00:08:32,270 lands on a branch near us and I'll 210 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:34,040 swoops above us and our lands on the 211 00:08:39,910 --> 00:08:37,010 ground by us and for the next 45 minutes 212 00:08:42,070 --> 00:08:39,920 or so these owls are right there in the 213 00:08:43,450 --> 00:08:42,080 moment and the before they were kind of 214 00:08:44,740 --> 00:08:43,460 they kept their distance a little bit 215 00:08:46,030 --> 00:08:44,750 not this time they were on the branches 216 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:46,040 right next to us they were on the ground 217 00:08:50,260 --> 00:08:48,170 right in front of us and have it 218 00:08:52,780 --> 00:08:50,270 happened once was pretty cool but to 219 00:08:53,140 --> 00:08:52,790 have it happen twice was kind of freak 220 00:08:57,130 --> 00:08:53,150 me out 221 00:09:00,040 --> 00:08:57,140 um and ice didn't say this at the time 222 00:09:03,370 --> 00:09:00,050 but I'm saying it now and I'm saying in 223 00:09:05,290 --> 00:09:03,380 the books when I saw those owls two 224 00:09:07,510 --> 00:09:05,300 nights in a row real owls right up close 225 00:09:09,310 --> 00:09:07,520 with someone else I had this booming 226 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:09,320 thought in my head it could have been an 227 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:11,090 external voice it felt like it was my 228 00:09:17,290 --> 00:09:13,610 own voice and it said this has something 229 00:09:18,790 --> 00:09:17,300 to do with the UFOs um started a blog 230 00:09:20,140 --> 00:09:18,800 eventually I started looking into the 231 00:09:21,820 --> 00:09:20,150 stuff I started looking into the owl 232 00:09:23,050 --> 00:09:21,830 stuff I started looking into the UFO 233 00:09:26,230 --> 00:09:23,060 stuff I started looking into my own 234 00:09:28,150 --> 00:09:26,240 story and at one point I started the 235 00:09:29,230 --> 00:09:28,160 blog and that was the very first post on 236 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:29,240 the blog the story I just told about 237 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:31,610 these owls and I after I posted it I got 238 00:09:34,690 --> 00:09:32,810 a hold of Kristin and I said what 239 00:09:37,570 --> 00:09:34,700 weren't we talking about that first 240 00:09:39,190 --> 00:09:37,580 night when you first saw the owls and 241 00:09:41,110 --> 00:09:39,200 she said oh I remember exactly what we 242 00:09:43,930 --> 00:09:41,120 were talking about I was giving my most 243 00:09:49,090 --> 00:09:43,940 heartfelt definition of what God means 244 00:09:51,130 --> 00:09:49,100 to me and I was like so that one small 245 00:09:52,690 --> 00:09:51,140 detail is so important in this thing and 246 00:09:54,430 --> 00:09:52,700 I'm not at all churchy or anything like 247 00:09:58,600 --> 00:09:54,440 that but it had a kind of resonant power 248 00:10:00,370 --> 00:09:58,610 that I that I I couldn't ignore and so 249 00:10:03,310 --> 00:10:00,380 that started me and then from that point 250 00:10:05,590 --> 00:10:03,320 on I just was like I was all about owls 251 00:10:07,090 --> 00:10:05,600 and everyone I asked in the UFO 252 00:10:08,590 --> 00:10:07,100 community I would ask the same question 253 00:10:10,570 --> 00:10:08,600 have you ever had any odd experiences 254 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:10,580 with owls it's not 100% but enough 255 00:10:13,780 --> 00:10:12,050 people were saying well here's a funny 256 00:10:15,010 --> 00:10:13,790 story for you then I started writing 257 00:10:16,930 --> 00:10:15,020 these stories down I started collecting 258 00:10:19,180 --> 00:10:16,940 I started archiving him and that became 259 00:10:22,540 --> 00:10:19,190 one big fat book and it became a second 260 00:10:25,090 --> 00:10:22,550 big fat book so I just popped up on the 261 00:10:25,900 --> 00:10:25,100 screen there my kind of first truth bump 262 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:25,910 and that's 263 00:10:33,790 --> 00:10:31,610 anyone can go in Google Isles UFOs and 264 00:10:38,020 --> 00:10:33,800 it's all my Cleveland when you do that 265 00:10:39,790 --> 00:10:38,030 it's all my cleaning so I want to talk 266 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:39,800 about your impact from a couple of 267 00:10:47,380 --> 00:10:43,610 different perspectives one perspective 268 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:47,390 is just how do you explain it how do you 269 00:10:54,910 --> 00:10:51,770 explain being this guy who's out camping 270 00:10:58,240 --> 00:10:54,920 and taps into something that is so 271 00:11:02,380 --> 00:10:58,250 deeply profound for so many people and 272 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:02,390 has largely been I don't want to say it 273 00:11:09,540 --> 00:11:07,130 just has been left unexplored for the 274 00:11:11,950 --> 00:11:09,550 lot for the most part undiscovered by 275 00:11:13,930 --> 00:11:11,960 all these people who are interested in 276 00:11:16,660 --> 00:11:13,940 the connection between consciousness and 277 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:16,670 UFOs so that's number one and then 278 00:11:24,070 --> 00:11:21,410 number two is what do you make of what 279 00:11:25,780 --> 00:11:24,080 what do you take in terms of your 280 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:25,790 responsibilities I mean that's a weighty 281 00:11:33,340 --> 00:11:29,930 kind of thing to have to be that guy now 282 00:11:35,980 --> 00:11:33,350 that this thing is so significant for so 283 00:11:39,810 --> 00:11:35,990 many people so can you pull those two 284 00:11:41,890 --> 00:11:39,820 apart for me so the first question was 285 00:11:43,270 --> 00:11:41,900 you know the second part is my 286 00:11:47,110 --> 00:11:43,280 responsibility the first question is 287 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:47,120 like why was this left untapped so why 288 00:11:53,620 --> 00:11:50,450 did was it left untapped of course why 289 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:53,630 do you suppose you were the one chosen 290 00:11:58,240 --> 00:11:55,730 to tap into it or do you believe that 291 00:12:00,730 --> 00:11:58,250 you were the one chosen to tap into it 292 00:12:03,940 --> 00:12:00,740 or what are your thoughts around that I 293 00:12:07,900 --> 00:12:03,950 mean I was in Google house you fo BAM 294 00:12:13,870 --> 00:12:07,910 there's one guy you're the guy yes sir 295 00:12:16,450 --> 00:12:13,880 and so yes so the quiz so the I have 296 00:12:18,310 --> 00:12:16,460 pondered I have no proof of this did 297 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:18,320 like I saw I have a I have a missing 298 00:12:24,910 --> 00:12:23,090 time event in 1974 I what did they take 299 00:12:27,910 --> 00:12:24,920 me to you know so I don't have any 300 00:12:29,590 --> 00:12:27,920 memories of being on board a UFO but but 301 00:12:32,740 --> 00:12:29,600 all the stuff around it sure seems like 302 00:12:34,210 --> 00:12:32,750 that's did I did they like zap me do 303 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:34,220 they like sit me down and some sort of 304 00:12:39,700 --> 00:12:36,890 altered state and say you in 45 years 305 00:12:43,270 --> 00:12:39,710 you will be the guy who answered 306 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:43,280 five emails a day about owls that was 307 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:46,610 long before you name and so if you will 308 00:12:49,900 --> 00:12:48,170 I mean so I've wondered that and it 309 00:12:51,910 --> 00:12:49,910 feels like that I have no proof of it 310 00:12:53,890 --> 00:12:51,920 but that's it kind of feels like that I 311 00:12:56,850 --> 00:12:53,900 my life was going one way boom it just 312 00:13:00,970 --> 00:12:56,860 shot off in a different direction um and 313 00:13:03,970 --> 00:13:00,980 now I am stuck with us and it's tie have 314 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:03,980 to say it is so wildly rewarding right 315 00:13:07,930 --> 00:13:06,290 it is the it is so fun to have this 316 00:13:09,910 --> 00:13:07,940 small little niche it's like you know I 317 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:09,920 keep on thinking like the you know the 318 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:12,650 high school history teacher if the 319 00:13:16,900 --> 00:13:13,970 student came up and said I'm gonna write 320 00:13:18,790 --> 00:13:16,910 a report on on World War two the history 321 00:13:20,020 --> 00:13:18,800 teacher would say oh let's let's rein 322 00:13:21,430 --> 00:13:20,030 that in a little bit and so you would 323 00:13:23,530 --> 00:13:21,440 kind of go from the end of the Pacific 324 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:23,540 to an island to one guy to one boat to 325 00:13:26,860 --> 00:13:25,130 one story to one afternoon and then you 326 00:13:28,150 --> 00:13:26,870 write your report and that's what it 327 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:28,160 feels like to me it's like well golly I 328 00:13:32,140 --> 00:13:29,810 could write a book about UFOs in like oh 329 00:13:35,110 --> 00:13:32,150 don't go down that road because it's but 330 00:13:37,540 --> 00:13:35,120 this tiny little fractal has been so 331 00:13:39,670 --> 00:13:37,550 rewarding and it was out there so that 332 00:13:41,350 --> 00:13:39,680 you could and I looked and I found a lot 333 00:13:43,180 --> 00:13:41,360 of them and there was there's in a lot 334 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:43,190 of books there's a paragraph or two 335 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:45,650 about owls well that's kind of the point 336 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:47,090 it was out there but it wasn't out there 337 00:13:53,170 --> 00:13:49,730 so it was whispered and it had a small 338 00:13:54,850 --> 00:13:53,180 and that was mostly the sea what would 339 00:13:59,260 --> 00:13:54,860 be referred to as a screen memory aspect 340 00:14:01,540 --> 00:13:59,270 of the owls which is which is a part of 341 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:01,550 the UFO abduction research but it is a 342 00:14:06,370 --> 00:14:05,450 small part of it but it is um the more 343 00:14:09,010 --> 00:14:06,380 interesting thing to me is that people 344 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:09,020 who are seeing real owls in these 345 00:14:13,900 --> 00:14:12,410 moments that to me is remarkable but so 346 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:13,910 Mike let's jump into that in a different 347 00:14:19,510 --> 00:14:16,850 way you in addition to publishing these 348 00:14:23,110 --> 00:14:19,520 excellent books have also published an 349 00:14:25,900 --> 00:14:23,120 audible audio version of stories from 350 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:25,910 the messengers and it's very well done 351 00:14:29,830 --> 00:14:28,010 it's just great and it's your voice 352 00:14:32,710 --> 00:14:29,840 which i think is always so cool when an 353 00:14:35,410 --> 00:14:32,720 author records their own book because it 354 00:14:38,260 --> 00:14:35,420 brings so so much more to it and I 355 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:38,270 wanted to play people a clip from your 356 00:14:43,390 --> 00:14:40,970 excellent sample for two reasons one so 357 00:14:46,660 --> 00:14:43,400 that they can see how cool it is but 358 00:14:48,850 --> 00:14:46,670 number two it really gets at this larger 359 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:48,860 question the question that really I care 360 00:14:53,420 --> 00:14:51,170 about and I think you care about deeply 361 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:53,430 is that you know 362 00:14:58,010 --> 00:14:56,130 what are how are we supposed to 363 00:15:00,860 --> 00:14:58,020 understand them you know you talk about 364 00:15:03,139 --> 00:15:00,870 them being a totem you talk about them 365 00:15:05,060 --> 00:15:03,149 being a screen memory that's just a UFO 366 00:15:07,250 --> 00:15:05,070 with disguises and how there's so many 367 00:15:09,889 --> 00:15:07,260 ways to pull that apart let me play this 368 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:09,899 clip into the show so people can hear it 369 00:15:15,970 --> 00:15:12,810 and then let's talk about it this is a 370 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:15,980 book of remarkable real-life experiences 371 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:20,490 this is also a book about owls owls seem 372 00:15:25,130 --> 00:15:22,410 to play a shadowy role in the UFO 373 00:15:27,500 --> 00:15:25,140 contact experience they also show up in 374 00:15:29,630 --> 00:15:27,510 relation to highly charged events like 375 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:29,640 synchronicities ancient archetypes 376 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:32,610 dreams shamanic initiation magic 377 00:15:39,500 --> 00:15:34,770 psychedelic hallucinations spiritual 378 00:15:41,180 --> 00:15:39,510 transformation and death I explored the 379 00:15:43,820 --> 00:15:41,190 owl and its connection with these 380 00:15:47,210 --> 00:15:43,830 divergent ideas in the messengers my 381 00:15:49,490 --> 00:15:47,220 first book on UFOs that book was also my 382 00:15:52,670 --> 00:15:49,500 own story of how owls played a role in 383 00:15:54,710 --> 00:15:52,680 my life it was an exploration into the 384 00:15:57,769 --> 00:15:54,720 deeply personal questions that arose 385 00:15:59,240 --> 00:15:57,779 from my contact experiences the process 386 00:16:01,579 --> 00:15:59,250 of creation was a journey of 387 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:01,589 transformation and I was a different 388 00:16:06,380 --> 00:16:03,290 person when the book was completed 389 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:06,390 within the nearly 400 pages of the 390 00:16:14,980 --> 00:16:10,250 messengers I repeatedly asked why owls 391 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:14,990 the question is simple the answer is not 392 00:16:21,890 --> 00:16:18,930 the owl is a symbol it's much more than 393 00:16:23,930 --> 00:16:21,900 just a bird with big eyes it represents 394 00:16:26,390 --> 00:16:23,940 something in the darkness just beyond 395 00:16:28,730 --> 00:16:26,400 what we know in our conscious Minds it's 396 00:16:32,900 --> 00:16:28,740 a red flag forcing me to pay attention a 397 00:16:34,220 --> 00:16:32,910 clue to look deeper many people have 398 00:16:36,380 --> 00:16:34,230 told me that they've had an owl 399 00:16:39,110 --> 00:16:36,390 experience that is somehow tied into a 400 00:16:41,630 --> 00:16:39,120 spiritual awakening it's a call to wake 401 00:16:44,449 --> 00:16:41,640 up to pay attention and to look within 402 00:16:47,300 --> 00:16:44,459 the owl is telling us to confront the 403 00:16:50,410 --> 00:16:47,310 deepest part of ourselves it's a summons 404 00:16:53,020 --> 00:16:50,420 to transform our soul 405 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:53,030 after immersing myself so deeply in this 406 00:16:59,530 --> 00:16:54,890 subject I am now at the point where I 407 00:17:01,870 --> 00:16:59,540 see owls and UFOs as the same thing both 408 00:17:04,740 --> 00:17:01,880 are eerily silent in flight and both 409 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:04,750 have the power to change people's lives 410 00:17:08,710 --> 00:17:07,490 the act of writing the messengers was 411 00:17:11,620 --> 00:17:08,720 monumental 412 00:17:14,260 --> 00:17:11,630 at its core that book was just a 413 00:17:16,390 --> 00:17:14,270 collection of stories the challenge was 414 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:16,400 how to convey the elusive quality of 415 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:19,250 what people had shared with me I am 416 00:17:23,230 --> 00:17:21,170 proud of the ideas that unfolded in that 417 00:17:25,210 --> 00:17:23,240 book yet at the same time it was 418 00:17:27,100 --> 00:17:25,220 heartbreaking to have to edit down so 419 00:17:29,530 --> 00:17:27,110 many amazing stories in a way that would 420 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:29,540 serve the reader there were accounts 421 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:32,210 that had such a powerful scope but it 422 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:33,770 was impossible to fit those in the 423 00:17:38,710 --> 00:17:36,530 manuscript this follow-up book is meant 424 00:17:40,270 --> 00:17:38,720 to be a companion a place that allows 425 00:17:43,300 --> 00:17:40,280 for these important stories to be told 426 00:17:45,310 --> 00:17:43,310 more completely each chapter in this 427 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:45,320 book focuses on a personal experience 428 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:47,450 and these accounts have two things in 429 00:17:58,090 --> 00:17:52,730 common an owl and a UFO talk to the clip 430 00:18:00,130 --> 00:17:58,100 in terms of the different I love the way 431 00:18:04,630 --> 00:18:00,140 you break it down Al's is a totem Al's 432 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:04,640 as a archetype Al's as a you know how 433 00:18:12,220 --> 00:18:09,650 did you come to that in and just that is 434 00:18:15,070 --> 00:18:12,230 the overall message just just speak to 435 00:18:16,540 --> 00:18:15,080 that a little bit because it's really 436 00:18:19,690 --> 00:18:16,550 deep it's really deep in a lot of ways 437 00:18:20,860 --> 00:18:19,700 so I was you know people rich Dolan gave 438 00:18:22,990 --> 00:18:20,870 me a hard time because he was like you 439 00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:23,000 need to be able to answer that people 440 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:25,130 ask what wallows mean and I in my the 441 00:18:29,170 --> 00:18:27,530 honest answer is I don't know and and 442 00:18:31,630 --> 00:18:29,180 but he was like no no you got to be able 443 00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:31,640 to answer that so I ain't been there 444 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:34,130 because I didn't really T that up quite 445 00:18:38,830 --> 00:18:35,570 correctly I mean you have these books 446 00:18:41,620 --> 00:18:38,840 where you've collected hundreds at this 447 00:18:45,370 --> 00:18:41,630 point thousands of stories from people 448 00:18:48,070 --> 00:18:45,380 who have strange encounters with owls 449 00:18:50,290 --> 00:18:48,080 and associated with UFOs a lot of times 450 00:18:53,290 --> 00:18:50,300 but not all the time I mean some 451 00:18:55,660 --> 00:18:53,300 shamanic journeys some our dreams 452 00:18:57,840 --> 00:18:55,670 out-of-body experiences all that you 453 00:19:01,210 --> 00:18:57,850 just opened up and said tell me about 454 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:01,220 your strange experiences with owls and 455 00:19:05,410 --> 00:19:03,290 you start getting back 456 00:19:08,740 --> 00:19:05,420 all this stuff and you're relating it to 457 00:19:10,780 --> 00:19:08,750 your own UFO contact experience which 458 00:19:12,550 --> 00:19:10,790 you're not even sure is a UFO contact 459 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:12,560 experience but you're trying to pull all 460 00:19:18,190 --> 00:19:15,650 this stuff together and now the benefit 461 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:18,200 of doing that is you've kind of sorted 462 00:19:22,540 --> 00:19:20,810 and sifted and said okay I have these 463 00:19:24,700 --> 00:19:22,550 different categories that I have to meet 464 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:24,710 I need to consider because as they're 465 00:19:30,490 --> 00:19:26,930 being reported to me here's what people 466 00:19:32,020 --> 00:19:30,500 are saying it is so maybe start with 467 00:19:34,750 --> 00:19:32,030 that you know what are the basic 468 00:19:38,020 --> 00:19:34,760 categories that people report and then 469 00:19:39,930 --> 00:19:38,030 how do you you know synthesize that what 470 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:39,940 are your thoughts about that 471 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:42,770 so I mean right off some that just done 472 00:19:47,230 --> 00:19:45,170 so well whatever worked one small box is 473 00:19:48,700 --> 00:19:47,240 UFO box that box is pretty full for me 474 00:19:50,850 --> 00:19:48,710 the other boxes are a little less full 475 00:19:58,840 --> 00:19:50,860 death shamanic initiation mushrooms 476 00:20:00,880 --> 00:19:58,850 meditation and experience you know 477 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:00,890 dreams and dreams too so those are those 478 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:02,810 I have like a smaller number of those 479 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:04,250 stories that have collected but I got a 480 00:20:08,980 --> 00:20:06,290 lot of UFO story so that box is full now 481 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:08,990 we split that box into two boxes and one 482 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:12,170 is the the the near excuse me the screen 483 00:20:18,340 --> 00:20:15,170 memory and the other is people seeing 484 00:20:20,890 --> 00:20:18,350 real owls explain explain for folks a 485 00:20:24,610 --> 00:20:20,900 screen memory as we understand it 486 00:20:26,110 --> 00:20:24,620 because even it's like every single 487 00:20:27,370 --> 00:20:26,120 every element is like slipping out of 488 00:20:29,820 --> 00:20:27,380 your hand and you can't hold on to it 489 00:20:31,690 --> 00:20:29,830 and so yes so the screen memory would be 490 00:20:33,580 --> 00:20:31,700 someone's driving I got this one over 491 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:33,590 and over can I got it just yesterday and 492 00:20:38,260 --> 00:20:35,210 you know someone's driving home at night 493 00:20:40,330 --> 00:20:38,270 there's an owl in the road like well 494 00:20:41,650 --> 00:20:40,340 that's a big owl and sometimes they pull 495 00:20:43,180 --> 00:20:41,660 up to the owl sometimes see how they 496 00:20:44,380 --> 00:20:43,190 drive around the owl and sometimes they 497 00:20:46,210 --> 00:20:44,390 actually get out and look at the owl and 498 00:20:48,670 --> 00:20:46,220 then they drive home and then they get 499 00:20:49,660 --> 00:20:48,680 home in the two hours late what happened 500 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:49,670 why I should have been home at midnight 501 00:20:53,170 --> 00:20:51,890 it's 2:00 in the morning and then at 502 00:20:54,130 --> 00:20:53,180 some point perhaps they go through 503 00:20:56,620 --> 00:20:54,140 hypnotic regression and the 504 00:20:58,630 --> 00:20:56,630 hypnotherapist says describe the owl and 505 00:21:01,210 --> 00:20:58,640 they'll say well the owl is skinny and 506 00:21:03,310 --> 00:21:01,220 about four feet tall and has a bald head 507 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:03,320 and big black eyes it's wearing a 508 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:05,450 tight-fitting spacesuit and I don't 509 00:21:11,140 --> 00:21:07,850 think it's an owl so the implication is 510 00:21:14,260 --> 00:21:11,150 that there is a psychic projection that 511 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:14,270 is that the observer is seeing an owl 512 00:21:17,540 --> 00:21:15,330 and that's 513 00:21:19,100 --> 00:21:17,550 remember and that has been somehow put 514 00:21:21,410 --> 00:21:19,110 in through somehow to some sort of 515 00:21:22,610 --> 00:21:21,420 hypnosis who knows why some technology 516 00:21:24,890 --> 00:21:22,620 whether it's psychic energy or a 517 00:21:26,570 --> 00:21:24,900 technology I don't know but people are 518 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:26,580 left remembering it's now now it's not 519 00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:28,850 just owls there's deer and raccoons and 520 00:21:33,290 --> 00:21:32,370 clowns and big squirrels and stuff like 521 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:33,300 that so there's a lot of things that 522 00:21:37,490 --> 00:21:34,650 show up in the in the screen memory 523 00:21:41,210 --> 00:21:37,500 aspect but far and away the most the 524 00:21:42,830 --> 00:21:41,220 number one on the list is is owls right 525 00:21:45,970 --> 00:21:42,840 behind that is deer both of these are 526 00:21:49,580 --> 00:21:45,980 highly charged symbolic animals of 527 00:21:51,740 --> 00:21:49,590 mythology too so hey so that's the 528 00:21:53,150 --> 00:21:51,750 that's off to one side yeah and the 529 00:21:54,950 --> 00:21:53,160 other thing like we were just alluding 530 00:21:56,360 --> 00:21:54,960 to to not go too far into inside 531 00:22:00,380 --> 00:21:56,370 baseball without bringing people along 532 00:22:02,300 --> 00:22:00,390 is the slippery slope on screen memories 533 00:22:03,740 --> 00:22:02,310 I mean the whole thing like I said is 534 00:22:05,810 --> 00:22:03,750 slippery because as soon as you start 535 00:22:07,550 --> 00:22:05,820 talking about hypnotic regression oh now 536 00:22:09,500 --> 00:22:07,560 I remember those people are jumping off 537 00:22:11,870 --> 00:22:09,510 a gun well you can't trust hypnosis and 538 00:22:13,370 --> 00:22:11,880 all the rest that which you you can and 539 00:22:17,090 --> 00:22:13,380 of course we can and you know what's 540 00:22:18,740 --> 00:22:17,100 used in forensic ly the courts and that 541 00:22:21,230 --> 00:22:18,750 and this someplace it's admissible but 542 00:22:22,790 --> 00:22:21,240 also take all that and put that in a box 543 00:22:24,530 --> 00:22:22,800 over on the side since you're using the 544 00:22:28,790 --> 00:22:24,540 box thing but the other thing that makes 545 00:22:31,340 --> 00:22:28,800 it slippery is now we start interpreting 546 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:31,350 other people's accounts and overlaying 547 00:22:34,820 --> 00:22:32,970 that right I mean it correct me if I'm 548 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:34,830 wrong but the problem area gets to be 549 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:37,170 people go oh well that's a scream memory 550 00:22:40,970 --> 00:22:39,210 well I don't know that it's a scream 551 00:22:43,070 --> 00:22:40,980 memory I just had this experience so one 552 00:22:44,870 --> 00:22:43,080 guy says yeah I had a hip now hypnotic 553 00:22:47,030 --> 00:22:44,880 regression and I've come to understand 554 00:22:50,150 --> 00:22:47,040 it as a scream memory but someone else 555 00:22:51,710 --> 00:22:50,160 just has a memory and they don't know 556 00:22:53,530 --> 00:22:51,720 they're not at the point of saying it's 557 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:53,540 a scream memory and a lot of times 558 00:22:57,050 --> 00:22:55,650 researchers or other folks want to jump 559 00:22:59,180 --> 00:22:57,060 in there and say oh well that's a screen 560 00:23:00,350 --> 00:22:59,190 memory well we don't know that it's a 561 00:23:02,420 --> 00:23:00,360 screen memory because then we're gonna 562 00:23:04,190 --> 00:23:02,430 go further along this continuum you're 563 00:23:06,790 --> 00:23:04,200 going to talk about Pullman boat real 564 00:23:09,020 --> 00:23:06,800 owls whatever the hell that means 565 00:23:11,930 --> 00:23:09,030 remember going to talk about owls in 566 00:23:14,570 --> 00:23:11,940 some kind of dream state or you know so 567 00:23:17,420 --> 00:23:14,580 we don't know it so the whole thing is 568 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:17,430 just very very hard to pin down but 569 00:23:21,350 --> 00:23:19,170 rather than just throw up our hands and 570 00:23:23,870 --> 00:23:21,360 say oh yeah you know it's impossible to 571 00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:23,880 understand and it's all yeah I mean IIIi 572 00:23:28,870 --> 00:23:26,370 want to try and nail it down a little 573 00:23:31,990 --> 00:23:28,880 bit like you just did so I would bring 574 00:23:33,340 --> 00:23:32,000 you back to this very fine point but 575 00:23:35,710 --> 00:23:33,350 it's maybe something we can contribute 576 00:23:39,100 --> 00:23:35,720 to this overall Conte conversation and 577 00:23:41,500 --> 00:23:39,110 that's what do you think about people 578 00:23:44,830 --> 00:23:41,510 who are kind of quick to judge other 579 00:23:47,470 --> 00:23:44,840 people's experience as being this screen 580 00:23:48,940 --> 00:23:47,480 memory well I'm certain their screen 581 00:23:50,740 --> 00:23:48,950 memories some play out as screen 582 00:23:51,850 --> 00:23:50,750 memories and I just like it I can you 583 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:51,860 know I want to be but you know like I 584 00:23:56,260 --> 00:23:55,010 write good some are sort all at a four 585 00:23:58,510 --> 00:23:56,270 foot tall owl in the middle of the road 586 00:23:59,590 --> 00:23:58,520 and driving at night missing time the 587 00:24:01,090 --> 00:23:59,600 they you can you can put all those 588 00:24:03,790 --> 00:24:01,100 puzzle pieces together and imply 589 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:03,800 something so may you know who knows 590 00:24:07,750 --> 00:24:05,810 what's a deeper reality under underlying 591 00:24:09,850 --> 00:24:07,760 all that is and I had the conversation 592 00:24:11,740 --> 00:24:09,860 with with Dave Jacobs I called him up on 593 00:24:13,660 --> 00:24:11,750 the phone and you could just hear him oh 594 00:24:14,890 --> 00:24:13,670 you could hear him backpedaling and just 595 00:24:17,950 --> 00:24:14,900 he was just you could hear his toes 596 00:24:19,270 --> 00:24:17,960 curling in his shoes as I gave my you 597 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:19,280 know rendition of all this and he's he 598 00:24:22,690 --> 00:24:20,570 was basically oh they're all screen 599 00:24:27,130 --> 00:24:22,700 someone season out it's a screen memory 600 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:27,140 and I was like in many cases I'll give 601 00:24:32,740 --> 00:24:28,850 you that but not in all of them and and 602 00:24:36,190 --> 00:24:32,750 so so on the other side is these real 603 00:24:37,780 --> 00:24:36,200 owls and people are seeing realize I had 604 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:37,790 someone contact me and they said well 605 00:24:39,940 --> 00:24:38,930 how come people don't take pictures of 606 00:24:41,740 --> 00:24:39,950 these real Isles and I'm like well 607 00:24:42,970 --> 00:24:41,750 actually I do and I appeared the problem 608 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:42,980 is their cell phone pictures and their 609 00:24:45,850 --> 00:24:44,570 crappy kid they look you know some 610 00:24:47,050 --> 00:24:45,860 little owl often a branch there's not 611 00:24:48,790 --> 00:24:47,060 much to see and you can kind of you 612 00:24:50,620 --> 00:24:48,800 really it's a so I like I don't really 613 00:24:52,330 --> 00:24:50,630 post them because there's kind of lousy 614 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:52,340 pictures um there's a couple in the book 615 00:24:58,840 --> 00:24:53,810 of people who sell real owl is right at 616 00:25:00,160 --> 00:24:58,850 the moment but I guess I'm hung up on 617 00:25:01,690 --> 00:25:00,170 and I'm gonna just pull this through out 618 00:25:04,210 --> 00:25:01,700 a little bit further and then let it go 619 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:04,220 because you're living it and but it's 620 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:08,330 fun to get your opinion isn't it very 621 00:25:14,530 --> 00:25:10,610 tricky territory when we start talking 622 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:14,540 about real owls because when we do enter 623 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:18,290 into the shamanic kind of part the 624 00:25:23,590 --> 00:25:21,290 spiritual kind of part the extended 625 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:23,600 consciousness dimensions where we're 626 00:25:27,820 --> 00:25:25,970 also running into beings that 627 00:25:30,940 --> 00:25:27,830 shape-shift and all the rest of that 628 00:25:33,610 --> 00:25:30,950 it's just really hard to pin down and I 629 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:33,620 appreciate David Jacobs and he's been on 630 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:34,730 the show a couple times we had some 631 00:25:40,150 --> 00:25:37,850 really interesting discussions but I I 632 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:40,160 see that as problematic to say there 633 00:25:46,649 --> 00:25:42,650 it's it's in one hand held 634 00:25:49,299 --> 00:25:46,659 to say we have to really embrace the 635 00:25:53,980 --> 00:25:49,309 technological part the consciousness 636 00:25:56,909 --> 00:25:53,990 tricks engineering technology that is 637 00:26:01,260 --> 00:25:56,919 causing us to communicate telepathically 638 00:26:04,930 --> 00:26:01,270 to have our memory raised to maybe even 639 00:26:06,850 --> 00:26:04,940 transport our consciousness I'm all 640 00:26:10,990 --> 00:26:06,860 about nailing that down but at the same 641 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:11,000 time I want to balance that with this 642 00:26:17,470 --> 00:26:14,570 deeper understanding of fully embracing 643 00:26:19,090 --> 00:26:17,480 the shamanic part of it in a way that 644 00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:19,100 makes sense and I know you're all about 645 00:26:24,159 --> 00:26:22,130 this so there comes a point when you you 646 00:26:26,799 --> 00:26:24,169 put your UFO researcher hat on right 647 00:26:28,299 --> 00:26:26,809 your your says UFO research around the 648 00:26:30,279 --> 00:26:28,309 head and someone gives you a story and 649 00:26:32,710 --> 00:26:30,289 they say some really weird thing about 650 00:26:34,419 --> 00:26:32,720 owls and you kinda as a nuts and bolts 651 00:26:36,310 --> 00:26:34,429 UFO researcher maybe you pay attention 652 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:36,320 to it in you and then but eventually you 653 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:38,090 kinda have to push that report aside now 654 00:26:42,460 --> 00:26:39,770 if you take that hat off and put on your 655 00:26:44,669 --> 00:26:42,470 shaman hat instead and say oh I'm gonna 656 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:44,679 look at this as a shamanic experience 657 00:26:49,060 --> 00:26:47,330 everything opens up in my opinion like 658 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:49,070 it all opens up and I'm not a shaman or 659 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:50,210 anything like that but the questions I 660 00:26:55,149 --> 00:26:52,730 ask of people you know or what was going 661 00:26:58,240 --> 00:26:55,159 on in your life just before you saw the 662 00:27:00,130 --> 00:26:58,250 owl or the UFO at this point they're 663 00:27:01,779 --> 00:27:00,140 they're equal to me I was in UFOs 664 00:27:03,789 --> 00:27:01,789 obviously not the same thing but I treat 665 00:27:05,169 --> 00:27:03,799 him as the same thing so someone has a 666 00:27:06,639 --> 00:27:05,179 powerful owl experience what was going 667 00:27:09,490 --> 00:27:06,649 on in your life right before you saw the 668 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:09,500 owl someone has a powerful UFO 669 00:27:13,330 --> 00:27:11,210 experience what was going on your life 670 00:27:15,460 --> 00:27:13,340 right before what changed afterwards and 671 00:27:17,190 --> 00:27:15,470 and I really pay attention to those 672 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:17,200 answers and that to me is where the 673 00:27:20,409 --> 00:27:19,010 fascinating stuff shows up and what's 674 00:27:21,490 --> 00:27:20,419 very common is I got a lot of accounts 675 00:27:23,830 --> 00:27:21,500 of people walking through the woods and 676 00:27:25,870 --> 00:27:23,840 they say would it be interesting right 677 00:27:27,730 --> 00:27:25,880 now to hear an owl and boom the novel 678 00:27:29,620 --> 00:27:27,740 starts hooting right next to him that 679 00:27:31,269 --> 00:27:29,630 and I've had the same thing happen where 680 00:27:33,039 --> 00:27:31,279 people say would it be interesting to 681 00:27:35,889 --> 00:27:33,049 see a UFO and then BOOM there's a 682 00:27:38,710 --> 00:27:35,899 hovering craft right about them so these 683 00:27:42,370 --> 00:27:38,720 if that's common in both sides of this 684 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:42,380 weird equation well that leads right 685 00:27:46,810 --> 00:27:44,210 into this next point that I want to talk 686 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:46,820 about and I pulled a short clip from an 687 00:27:52,149 --> 00:27:49,490 interview you gave with Jim Harold on 688 00:27:54,159 --> 00:27:52,159 the paranormal podcast who you know 689 00:27:55,299 --> 00:27:54,169 thanks for pointing me to this interview 690 00:27:58,360 --> 00:27:55,309 because it remind 691 00:28:01,119 --> 00:27:58,370 me of what a great job Jim Harold does 692 00:28:04,259 --> 00:28:01,129 and he does a very straight-up kind of 693 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:04,269 radio style thing but in listening to 694 00:28:10,509 --> 00:28:07,610 his interview with you I was really 695 00:28:12,999 --> 00:28:10,519 impressed that he was hitting on a lot 696 00:28:14,470 --> 00:28:13,009 of the deeper questions that I wanted to 697 00:28:16,180 --> 00:28:14,480 talk about and doing it in an excellent 698 00:28:24,759 --> 00:28:16,190 way let me play this clip and then we 699 00:28:27,220 --> 00:28:24,769 can talk about it to make and it might 700 00:28:28,989 --> 00:28:27,230 be part of it but it all crumbles when 701 00:28:30,580 --> 00:28:28,999 you start to really look at the the 702 00:28:32,820 --> 00:28:30,590 weirdness that surrounds it so this is 703 00:28:36,909 --> 00:28:32,830 what I often say in this research is I I 704 00:28:40,509 --> 00:28:36,919 need to take my UFO researcher hat off 705 00:28:42,820 --> 00:28:40,519 and put on my shaman hat like I have to 706 00:28:43,869 --> 00:28:42,830 ask the questions a shaman would ask you 707 00:28:46,299 --> 00:28:43,879 know what was going on in your life 708 00:28:48,580 --> 00:28:46,309 leading up to the event what changed in 709 00:28:50,100 --> 00:28:48,590 your life after the event you know so if 710 00:28:53,289 --> 00:28:50,110 you were if you were in if we were in 711 00:28:54,669 --> 00:28:53,299 like a young tribesman and you came to 712 00:28:57,430 --> 00:28:54,679 the shamans tepee at the edge of the 713 00:29:00,879 --> 00:28:57,440 village you know 500 years ago in in 714 00:29:02,340 --> 00:29:00,889 North Dakota and you had seen an owl 715 00:29:06,340 --> 00:29:02,350 under let's say highly charged 716 00:29:07,779 --> 00:29:06,350 circumstances you know the shaman would 717 00:29:09,609 --> 00:29:07,789 say what were you thinking beforehand 718 00:29:10,749 --> 00:29:09,619 and what's how is your life changed 719 00:29:12,639 --> 00:29:10,759 afterwards how is your spirituality 720 00:29:14,529 --> 00:29:12,649 changed how is your dream life changed 721 00:29:16,690 --> 00:29:14,539 these are the questions that fascinate 722 00:29:18,489 --> 00:29:16,700 me in the context of the UFO thing I'm 723 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:18,499 certainly interested in the size and the 724 00:29:25,029 --> 00:29:20,210 direction and what the craft look like 725 00:29:26,950 --> 00:29:25,039 and in all that but I'm I'm sort of 726 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:26,960 stepping outside the bounds of what 727 00:29:32,049 --> 00:29:29,570 would be called ufology and into the to 728 00:29:35,739 --> 00:29:32,059 the you know the consciousness aspect of 729 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:35,749 what may or may not be taking place you 730 00:29:39,489 --> 00:29:37,610 know how do you balance and you've 731 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:39,499 talked a little bit about this this idea 732 00:29:42,730 --> 00:29:41,330 that I I appreciate where you've come up 733 00:29:45,190 --> 00:29:42,740 heard you say before that I'm a 734 00:29:46,539 --> 00:29:45,200 folklorist you know because you're kind 735 00:29:48,249 --> 00:29:46,549 of collecting these stories or you're an 736 00:29:50,049 --> 00:29:48,259 anthropologist another way of looking at 737 00:29:52,539 --> 00:29:50,059 it you know I just interviewed dr. Jack 738 00:29:55,779 --> 00:29:52,549 hunter who publishes this really cool 739 00:29:57,700 --> 00:29:55,789 journal called para anthropology and 740 00:30:00,879 --> 00:29:57,710 he's into this idea that we need to look 741 00:30:05,470 --> 00:30:00,889 at kind of multiple paradigms multiple 742 00:30:07,420 --> 00:30:05,480 realities multiple ontological ontology 743 00:30:09,610 --> 00:30:07,430 x' you know so 744 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:09,620 where do you come down on that because 745 00:30:12,970 --> 00:30:10,730 one of the things I guess how is gonna 746 00:30:15,820 --> 00:30:12,980 poke at you is sometimes you go hey man 747 00:30:17,530 --> 00:30:15,830 you know I'm just my doing my folklorist 748 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:17,540 thing over here I'm not doing science 749 00:30:21,580 --> 00:30:19,370 I'm not doing research and it's like to 750 00:30:23,410 --> 00:30:21,590 me it's like you could really turn it 751 00:30:27,430 --> 00:30:23,420 around and saying you're doing something 752 00:30:29,620 --> 00:30:27,440 closer to science research that is gonna 753 00:30:33,910 --> 00:30:29,630 move the ball forward then somebody 754 00:30:36,670 --> 00:30:33,920 whose data mining a MUFON database about 755 00:30:38,590 --> 00:30:36,680 the size of craft or how many prongs 756 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:38,600 were on the bottom of it or something 757 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:42,170 like that which your investigation calls 758 00:30:48,310 --> 00:30:45,170 into question how we would even begin to 759 00:30:52,390 --> 00:30:48,320 understand the reality of that so what 760 00:30:55,150 --> 00:30:52,400 do you think about all that I mean what 761 00:30:56,950 --> 00:30:55,160 do you got three you know rode the 762 00:30:59,800 --> 00:30:56,960 trains and he was a hobo and he wrote 763 00:31:03,100 --> 00:30:59,810 songs about hobos and and and now I 764 00:31:06,700 --> 00:31:03,110 think our entire mystique about hobos in 765 00:31:09,850 --> 00:31:06,710 the 1930s is all like framed around you 766 00:31:11,650 --> 00:31:09,860 know his the stories he told in that way 767 00:31:12,850 --> 00:31:11,660 and I feel like you know I feel like 768 00:31:14,170 --> 00:31:12,860 more like Woody Guthrie than I do a 769 00:31:15,820 --> 00:31:14,180 scientist it's funny I'm gay 770 00:31:18,850 --> 00:31:15,830 getting ready to do a talk at a 771 00:31:20,110 --> 00:31:18,860 symposium a scientific symposiums called 772 00:31:21,580 --> 00:31:20,120 Scott science right in the title and all 773 00:31:25,750 --> 00:31:21,590 these scientists are showing up and and 774 00:31:28,180 --> 00:31:25,760 and they want me to talk and and I have 775 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:28,190 to like I had to write the abstract and 776 00:31:30,730 --> 00:31:29,450 I basically in the abstract had to say 777 00:31:31,810 --> 00:31:30,740 like I'm not really a scientist so I 778 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:31,820 know what you're saying and I'm very 779 00:31:37,090 --> 00:31:34,250 cautious to to jump to any conclusions 780 00:31:39,460 --> 00:31:37,100 but as far as the the research that I'm 781 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:39,470 doing I'm trying to be as honest as I 782 00:31:44,470 --> 00:31:41,810 can in the stories that I'm collecting 783 00:31:47,350 --> 00:31:44,480 if people say something outrageously 784 00:31:49,390 --> 00:31:47,360 strange all I can say is that's what the 785 00:31:52,210 --> 00:31:49,400 person told me right so people I had a 786 00:31:54,190 --> 00:31:52,220 woman say and I'll land it outside her 787 00:31:55,540 --> 00:31:54,200 window a blue beam came down from outer 788 00:31:57,340 --> 00:31:55,550 space hit the owl on the top of the head 789 00:31:59,080 --> 00:31:57,350 it's not all the Owls eyes and into her 790 00:32:01,930 --> 00:31:59,090 third eye and she had this mystical 791 00:32:03,370 --> 00:32:01,940 experience because of it see but I guess 792 00:32:05,410 --> 00:32:03,380 what I'm saying is you're a cool guys 793 00:32:07,930 --> 00:32:05,420 you'd never do this but what if you went 794 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:07,940 to the science conference and said you 795 00:32:12,100 --> 00:32:10,010 guys aren't close to doing science on 796 00:32:14,770 --> 00:32:12,110 any of this stuff aren't close you're 797 00:32:17,950 --> 00:32:14,780 the polar opposite of science if you 798 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:17,960 want to look at science here's your best 799 00:32:24,130 --> 00:32:21,170 chance go dive into these experiences go 800 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:24,140 take the shamanic approach balanced with 801 00:32:28,150 --> 00:32:26,450 the screen memory approach what if you 802 00:32:29,350 --> 00:32:28,160 just went out there and said I'm the 803 00:32:32,260 --> 00:32:29,360 scientist none of you guys are 804 00:32:33,490 --> 00:32:32,270 scientists I would I wouldn't say no you 805 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:33,500 guys are scientists I'm what I would say 806 00:32:37,570 --> 00:32:35,330 is like this has to be explored at a 807 00:32:38,740 --> 00:32:37,580 completely different way right so so one 808 00:32:40,330 --> 00:32:38,750 of those things and I do this in my talk 809 00:32:41,650 --> 00:32:40,340 and it's and I like doing it and people 810 00:32:43,140 --> 00:32:41,660 I've gotten you know in my face about 811 00:32:48,790 --> 00:32:43,150 it's like what are you talking about so 812 00:32:50,020 --> 00:32:48,800 when I was so I this happened and this 813 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:50,030 was a real thing I'm not explaining 814 00:32:53,230 --> 00:32:51,050 something it really happened it happened 815 00:32:54,820 --> 00:32:53,240 to me so I yeah buy your book on you can 816 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:54,830 buy a book on a UFO book and you get it 817 00:32:59,950 --> 00:32:56,930 on your eBook and you get on a Kindle 818 00:33:02,500 --> 00:32:59,960 right so right away I get on my iPad I 819 00:33:05,220 --> 00:33:02,510 can Steichen search it I can search for 820 00:33:09,790 --> 00:33:05,230 the single word in the word I want is ow 821 00:33:11,050 --> 00:33:09,800 so the word owl shows up and then but 822 00:33:13,270 --> 00:33:11,060 it's in the middle of other words in 823 00:33:15,780 --> 00:33:13,280 Bowl and stuff like that and but it's 824 00:33:20,230 --> 00:33:15,790 also in knowledge and you get a book on 825 00:33:21,460 --> 00:33:20,240 um you know a book by John Mac and it's 826 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:21,470 just full of the word knowledge so you 827 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:24,770 gotta get I gotta get past knowledge I 828 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:27,770 want to get to all knowledge knowledge 829 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:30,890 that's getting my way and that that was 830 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:31,930 like an epiphany for me 831 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:34,850 knowledge was getting in my way if I was 832 00:33:37,930 --> 00:33:36,170 gonna proceed down this thing I had to 833 00:33:41,290 --> 00:33:37,940 just sweep aside knowledge and and 834 00:33:43,300 --> 00:33:41,300 follow something very intuitive and I 835 00:33:45,130 --> 00:33:43,310 you know cuz if I was stuck with logic 836 00:33:46,390 --> 00:33:45,140 if I was stuck with pragmatic reasoning 837 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:46,400 I would say this whole thing is 838 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:49,130 ridiculous I had to do that too for my 839 00:33:55,570 --> 00:33:52,490 own experience right I had to say yes I 840 00:33:58,810 --> 00:33:55,580 did see aliens in my backyard because I 841 00:34:01,360 --> 00:33:58,820 spent a decades saying no that was a 842 00:34:04,930 --> 00:34:01,370 dream I no longer think it's a dream and 843 00:34:09,820 --> 00:34:04,940 I had to get past that linear brick wall 844 00:34:12,790 --> 00:34:09,830 literal brick wall of of pragmatic 845 00:34:14,980 --> 00:34:12,800 thought and get into something more 846 00:34:17,100 --> 00:34:14,990 intuitive and more heart based as corny 847 00:34:20,110 --> 00:34:17,110 as that sounds so there's this books 848 00:34:22,330 --> 00:34:20,120 they're kind of mushy I mean I get kind 849 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:22,340 of touchy-feely in those books I did not 850 00:34:28,659 --> 00:34:25,210 expect that as I as I pressed forward um 851 00:34:31,820 --> 00:34:28,669 but that was that was me releasing and 852 00:34:32,690 --> 00:34:31,830 shedding that that that that that I mean 853 00:34:34,310 --> 00:34:32,700 obviously you got to write a clean 854 00:34:36,110 --> 00:34:34,320 sentence you gotta put the comments 855 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:36,120 where they're supposed to go but you 856 00:34:42,140 --> 00:34:40,410 also need to to just dive in and trust 857 00:34:44,770 --> 00:34:42,150 that these things are that there's a 858 00:34:47,210 --> 00:34:44,780 story there 859 00:34:49,100 --> 00:34:47,220 well I think your willingness to be 860 00:34:52,010 --> 00:34:49,110 vulnerable in that way is a real 861 00:34:55,310 --> 00:34:52,020 strength of the books and it connects 862 00:34:58,490 --> 00:34:55,320 with so many people obviously so you 863 00:35:02,300 --> 00:34:58,500 know my my fourth truth bump here is 864 00:35:04,910 --> 00:35:02,310 this idea of unsigned I wanted to pull 865 00:35:07,580 --> 00:35:04,920 you in some directions that you kind of 866 00:35:10,310 --> 00:35:07,590 touch on but don't maybe talk on all the 867 00:35:13,340 --> 00:35:10,320 time and I have an a clip from your 868 00:35:15,380 --> 00:35:13,350 buddy rich Dolan talking with Gordon 869 00:35:20,390 --> 00:35:15,390 white and an excellent show that they 870 00:35:24,430 --> 00:35:20,400 recorded on what might be a replacement 871 00:35:26,750 --> 00:35:24,440 for the ETH the extra-terrestrial 872 00:35:30,070 --> 00:35:26,760 hypothesis let me play this clip and 873 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:30,080 then see what you might think about it 874 00:35:36,110 --> 00:35:34,050 arguing so I don't think I mean I know I 875 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:36,120 don't think the old for terrestrial just 876 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:39,570 as an example of non ETH perspective I 877 00:35:46,550 --> 00:35:42,570 don't think it's aged that well but but 878 00:35:48,230 --> 00:35:46,560 I think an updated ETH needs to and and 879 00:35:49,670 --> 00:35:48,240 using some other lay stuff because the 880 00:35:53,450 --> 00:35:49,680 only thing that frustrates me about the 881 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:53,460 ETH non ETH is people selectively read 882 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:55,050 valet like he does say that we're 883 00:35:59,510 --> 00:35:56,610 absolutely talking about a technology 884 00:36:02,960 --> 00:35:59,520 here like this isn't just like you can't 885 00:36:07,460 --> 00:36:02,970 just say it's old I don't know it's all 886 00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:07,470 fairies know exactly exactly exactly I 887 00:36:12,740 --> 00:36:11,250 would say you know a fresh ETH needs to 888 00:36:14,210 --> 00:36:12,750 incorporate a few things like so it 889 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:14,220 would want you want to encourage and 890 00:36:20,300 --> 00:36:18,690 incorporate some of the sciences I mean 891 00:36:22,610 --> 00:36:20,310 at current knowledge in astronomy and 892 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:22,620 let's say exoplanetary studies should 893 00:36:26,930 --> 00:36:24,450 incorporate under our current knowledge 894 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:26,940 of energy and propulsion and automation 895 00:36:31,850 --> 00:36:30,210 and AI and computing and it also I think 896 00:36:33,170 --> 00:36:31,860 should incorporate the experiences of 897 00:36:35,450 --> 00:36:33,180 people who've encountered these 898 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:35,460 intelligences including what we call 899 00:36:40,940 --> 00:36:38,850 experiences or abductions but my own 900 00:36:42,530 --> 00:36:40,950 take on it is that you know my 901 00:36:43,730 --> 00:36:42,540 extra-terrestrial hypothesis 902 00:36:45,580 --> 00:36:43,740 whoever they are they've come here 903 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:45,590 they've been here for a long time 904 00:36:50,660 --> 00:36:48,810 they're unbelievably advanced beyond 905 00:36:53,330 --> 00:36:50,670 quantum computing beyond what we would 906 00:36:56,930 --> 00:36:53,340 call the singularity in AI I assume that 907 00:36:59,270 --> 00:36:56,940 they had total genetic mastery of some 908 00:37:02,270 --> 00:36:59,280 version of organic printing and virtual 909 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:02,280 reality creation and so I mean and and 910 00:37:08,540 --> 00:37:03,690 you know that's just the beginning then 911 00:37:09,350 --> 00:37:08,550 you that's just the beginning that's a 912 00:37:11,990 --> 00:37:09,360 lot to take in 913 00:37:14,530 --> 00:37:12,000 let's talk about that a little bit and 914 00:37:16,610 --> 00:37:14,540 in particular I want to tie it back to 915 00:37:20,740 --> 00:37:16,620 what we were just talking about in terms 916 00:37:25,220 --> 00:37:20,750 of your book in your work and your 917 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:25,230 desire and willingness to go shamanic if 918 00:37:30,380 --> 00:37:28,170 you can say that and at the same time 919 00:37:32,510 --> 00:37:30,390 our need to kind of pull it back I like 920 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:32,520 the way that Gordon Yin and Richard are 921 00:37:37,850 --> 00:37:34,530 talking about it here is hey there's a 922 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:37,860 technology component that's undeniable 923 00:37:45,740 --> 00:37:40,650 here and it seems to have a lot of 924 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:45,750 overlap with this shamanic extended 925 00:37:49,820 --> 00:37:47,970 consciousness stuff let's chat about 926 00:37:56,750 --> 00:37:49,830 that for a minute and how you pull that 927 00:37:59,720 --> 00:37:56,760 apart I mean these experiences are so 928 00:38:01,730 --> 00:37:59,730 utterly bizarre right I mean they 929 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:01,740 they're in one sense it are they bizarre 930 00:38:06,620 --> 00:38:03,330 on purpose forcing us to pay attention 931 00:38:08,450 --> 00:38:06,630 that they're so weird I mean the 932 00:38:09,830 --> 00:38:08,460 pancakes story what's the good they give 933 00:38:11,690 --> 00:38:09,840 the fellow who had the pancakes back in 934 00:38:14,450 --> 00:38:11,700 Wisconsin that says howdy it doesn't get 935 00:38:15,950 --> 00:38:14,460 any weirder than that and say that so he 936 00:38:18,170 --> 00:38:15,960 goes on the he goes on the ship and they 937 00:38:19,460 --> 00:38:18,180 give him pancakes they make pancakes on 938 00:38:22,070 --> 00:38:19,470 a little griddle and then they heat they 939 00:38:28,010 --> 00:38:22,080 actually they actually so we so nobody's 940 00:38:29,450 --> 00:38:28,020 gonna make that up right so why is I so 941 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:29,460 first of all I don't care right 942 00:38:32,150 --> 00:38:31,050 I don't care where they come from outer 943 00:38:33,620 --> 00:38:32,160 space I don't care where they come from 944 00:38:35,510 --> 00:38:33,630 that dimension I don't care if they're 945 00:38:38,540 --> 00:38:35,520 part of our collective unconscious but I 946 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:38,550 did how can you not care I mean is 947 00:38:44,330 --> 00:38:41,490 because if I as soon as I hear about as 948 00:38:48,140 --> 00:38:44,340 soon as I latch onto that as soon as I 949 00:38:49,340 --> 00:38:48,150 latch onto one then the other ones then 950 00:38:51,050 --> 00:38:49,350 I ignore the other ones I want it all 951 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:51,060 all the flood in I want all these 952 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:52,530 reports to flood in and I want the crazy 953 00:38:56,569 --> 00:38:54,810 ones to flood in I want the ones that 954 00:38:58,489 --> 00:38:56,579 that are illogical 955 00:39:02,269 --> 00:38:58,499 - I want to wrestle with that stuff so 956 00:39:04,189 --> 00:39:02,279 if if I'm so yes maybe so maybe there's 957 00:39:05,229 --> 00:39:04,199 a component to it that is comes from 958 00:39:07,429 --> 00:39:05,239 another planet 959 00:39:09,289 --> 00:39:07,439 maybe there's a component that comes 960 00:39:10,910 --> 00:39:09,299 that is a reflection of our own inner 961 00:39:15,049 --> 00:39:10,920 psyche maybe there's a component that 962 00:39:17,059 --> 00:39:15,059 it's there's a deeper layer of reality 963 00:39:19,039 --> 00:39:17,069 and they're in another layer and they 964 00:39:21,439 --> 00:39:19,049 can peer into our reality this is all I 965 00:39:23,029 --> 00:39:21,449 can do is speculate what I and I say it 966 00:39:25,189 --> 00:39:23,039 very early on in the first one I'm a 967 00:39:27,769 --> 00:39:25,199 disciple of this story I love the 968 00:39:29,419 --> 00:39:27,779 stories so if someone tells a story and 969 00:39:31,579 --> 00:39:29,429 that just points to oh it's a metal 970 00:39:33,859 --> 00:39:31,589 spaceship that landed in the in the road 971 00:39:36,049 --> 00:39:33,869 that's how I tell the story that's how I 972 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:36,059 retell the story that's how I if someone 973 00:39:39,589 --> 00:39:37,650 tells a story that's like oh I was 974 00:39:43,910 --> 00:39:39,599 transported into this mystical realm and 975 00:39:45,499 --> 00:39:43,920 I and I had this out-of-body experience 976 00:39:49,459 --> 00:39:45,509 where I communed with gods and that's 977 00:39:50,870 --> 00:39:49,469 how I tell the story so um oh that's the 978 00:39:53,419 --> 00:39:50,880 story they've told me and that's that's 979 00:39:56,269 --> 00:39:53,429 how I so I don't want to get locked down 980 00:39:57,529 --> 00:39:56,279 into that but yes I and I can listen I 981 00:39:59,329 --> 00:39:57,539 can pay attention I can wrap my head 982 00:40:02,150 --> 00:39:59,339 around all the different modalities of 983 00:40:04,459 --> 00:40:02,160 what it might be and I just want to be 984 00:40:06,289 --> 00:40:04,469 cautious not to you know I mean there's 985 00:40:10,969 --> 00:40:06,299 a lot of bathwater and there's multiple 986 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:10,979 babies in there so I think that's great 987 00:40:17,449 --> 00:40:13,410 and I think that's somewhat of a lead-in 988 00:40:18,890 --> 00:40:17,459 to my fifth and final truth bump if you 989 00:40:21,529 --> 00:40:18,900 will that I wanted to kind of hit you 990 00:40:22,729 --> 00:40:21,539 with and it's ray Hernandez who we're 991 00:40:25,849 --> 00:40:22,739 just chatting a little bit before the 992 00:40:28,429 --> 00:40:25,859 show I've known ray for a long time like 993 00:40:29,779 --> 00:40:28,439 you I mean he contacted me really early 994 00:40:32,449 --> 00:40:29,789 on and the sceptical thing when he was 995 00:40:34,579 --> 00:40:32,459 first getting started like I know I was 996 00:40:35,660 --> 00:40:34,589 one of the first people he contacted and 997 00:40:37,489 --> 00:40:35,670 said hey that this really strange 998 00:40:40,819 --> 00:40:37,499 experience where do I go kind of thing 999 00:40:42,439 --> 00:40:40,829 and I was like wow I don't know I'm not 1000 00:40:44,630 --> 00:40:42,449 really my thing let me try and help you 1001 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:44,640 and then I became involved in this free 1002 00:40:48,410 --> 00:40:46,410 organization that he became a part of 1003 00:40:51,679 --> 00:40:48,420 and then you contact and he's some 1004 00:40:55,969 --> 00:40:51,689 fantastic work with this and the 1005 00:40:58,699 --> 00:40:55,979 question that he draws right to the 1006 00:41:01,239 --> 00:40:58,709 center of the stage is this one that we 1007 00:41:03,650 --> 00:41:01,249 were just wrestling with and that is 1008 00:41:06,349 --> 00:41:03,660 contacting what what exactly are we 1009 00:41:07,860 --> 00:41:06,359 contacting and in this presentation ray 1010 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:07,870 talks about the 1011 00:41:17,370 --> 00:41:13,930 really dramatic parallels between UFO 1012 00:41:21,300 --> 00:41:17,380 contact / alien contact experiences and 1013 00:41:23,700 --> 00:41:21,310 this near-death experience contact 1014 00:41:25,500 --> 00:41:23,710 experience that we are really 1015 00:41:27,860 --> 00:41:25,510 comfortable with at this point was 1016 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:27,870 saying okay that's a medical reality 1017 00:41:34,290 --> 00:41:31,210 heart surgeons see that and patients 1018 00:41:36,420 --> 00:41:34,300 recount that even if they're under heavy 1019 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:36,430 anesthesia even if they're pronounced 1020 00:41:42,090 --> 00:41:39,850 dead and are in the morgue or even if 1021 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:42,100 they're blind from birth and then they 1022 00:41:46,260 --> 00:41:43,810 for the first and only time in their 1023 00:41:49,500 --> 00:41:46,270 life are able to see during the 1024 00:41:52,410 --> 00:41:49,510 near-death experience so you know ray 1025 00:41:53,850 --> 00:41:52,420 did an awesome work of saying okay you 1026 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:53,860 know what are those two things look like 1027 00:41:58,080 --> 00:41:55,530 dude do these are these two things 1028 00:42:01,860 --> 00:41:58,090 similar in any way and here's what he 1029 00:42:03,230 --> 00:42:01,870 says but I've site is experiencer org 1030 00:42:06,510 --> 00:42:03,240 [Music] 1031 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:06,520 the title of my presentation today is a 1032 00:42:11,720 --> 00:42:09,610 comparative analysis of UFO related 1033 00:42:14,070 --> 00:42:11,730 contact with non-human intelligence 1034 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:14,080 near-death experiences and out-of-body 1035 00:42:19,770 --> 00:42:17,050 experiences consciousness and contact 1036 00:42:25,380 --> 00:42:19,780 towards the unification of the contact 1037 00:42:29,070 --> 00:42:25,390 modalities and we can stop it right 1038 00:42:34,020 --> 00:42:29,080 there because the died laconic gives the 1039 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:34,030 story away you know let's dive right 1040 00:42:40,410 --> 00:42:37,210 back in where we left off on the point 1041 00:42:42,180 --> 00:42:40,420 before is what are we contacting here 1042 00:42:44,100 --> 00:42:42,190 well that's what you know so it's funny 1043 00:42:46,020 --> 00:42:44,110 because the original title of the second 1044 00:42:50,550 --> 00:42:46,030 book was going to be stories from 1045 00:42:53,790 --> 00:42:50,560 messengers owls UFOs and consciousness 1046 00:42:55,650 --> 00:42:53,800 and I went read through the book and 1047 00:42:56,610 --> 00:42:55,660 that was the title of it and I was like 1048 00:42:58,080 --> 00:42:56,620 you know I don't really mention 1049 00:42:59,670 --> 00:42:58,090 consciousness I don't really use the 1050 00:43:01,320 --> 00:42:59,680 term consciousness in the book I use it 1051 00:43:05,460 --> 00:43:01,330 a couple times but I don't really say 1052 00:43:09,300 --> 00:43:05,470 that I don't really explain the title of 1053 00:43:11,370 --> 00:43:09,310 the book it's now called owls UFOs and a 1054 00:43:13,230 --> 00:43:11,380 deeper reality I do explore this realm 1055 00:43:15,720 --> 00:43:13,240 of a deeper reality that surrounds us 1056 00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:15,730 now yeah so that's what I'm concerned 1057 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:17,410 with like all these things right so 1058 00:43:20,430 --> 00:43:18,970 people have these powerful experiences I 1059 00:43:22,140 --> 00:43:20,440 mean a UFO we fix 1060 00:43:24,780 --> 00:43:22,150 can be powerful can be life-changing an 1061 00:43:26,370 --> 00:43:24,790 owl sighting I have people who've turned 1062 00:43:28,020 --> 00:43:26,380 back from suicide because an owl 1063 00:43:31,980 --> 00:43:28,030 presented itself to them 1064 00:43:33,900 --> 00:43:31,990 I have synchronicities a powerful 1065 00:43:36,030 --> 00:43:33,910 synchronicity can change someone's life 1066 00:43:37,770 --> 00:43:36,040 these are transformative experience 1067 00:43:40,829 --> 00:43:37,780 death is the ultimate transformation 1068 00:43:43,050 --> 00:43:40,839 right so that owls are the totem of 1069 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:43,060 death all across the world as a matter 1070 00:43:47,579 --> 00:43:44,650 where you are you go to Ireland you go 1071 00:43:49,890 --> 00:43:47,589 to Norway you go to Tierra del Fuego you 1072 00:43:56,010 --> 00:43:49,900 go to Russia there all is symbolic of 1073 00:43:59,089 --> 00:43:56,020 death so loosen that back take two steps 1074 00:44:02,460 --> 00:43:59,099 back to me the owl is this totem of the 1075 00:44:04,050 --> 00:44:02,470 transformational process so people see a 1076 00:44:07,319 --> 00:44:04,060 UFO they are transformed someone sees 1077 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:07,329 UFO there never with you see one and 1078 00:44:12,780 --> 00:44:10,930 then you see you know the guy you know 1079 00:44:14,609 --> 00:44:12,790 the the scientist on on the 1080 00:44:15,809 --> 00:44:14,619 point/counterpoint kind of documentary 1081 00:44:17,579 --> 00:44:15,819 say well there's no such thing as UFOs 1082 00:44:18,930 --> 00:44:17,589 you know that guy is wrong because 1083 00:44:21,059 --> 00:44:18,940 you've had and I've had the direct 1084 00:44:22,770 --> 00:44:21,069 experience of seeing flying craft in the 1085 00:44:25,290 --> 00:44:22,780 sky that defies all boundaries I know 1086 00:44:25,740 --> 00:44:25,300 that guy is wrong I know I know what I 1087 00:44:27,660 --> 00:44:25,750 saw 1088 00:44:29,609 --> 00:44:27,670 so all of a sudden I'm outside the 1089 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:29,619 boundaries of the society you know the 1090 00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:31,810 norms because of my direct experience I 1091 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:37,690 know that the that skeptics drumbeat of 1092 00:44:44,790 --> 00:44:39,490 there's no such thing as UFOs is wrong 1093 00:44:46,349 --> 00:44:44,800 and but it but that same thing can 1094 00:44:47,609 --> 00:44:46,359 happen with these other with an 1095 00:44:48,839 --> 00:44:47,619 out-of-body experience with a near-death 1096 00:44:52,470 --> 00:44:48,849 experience with the shamanic initiation 1097 00:44:55,589 --> 00:44:52,480 with a deep state of meditation so what 1098 00:44:57,210 --> 00:44:55,599 what I'm more concerned about in in Rey 1099 00:44:58,680 --> 00:44:57,220 Hernandez Hernandez speaks to this 1100 00:45:02,730 --> 00:44:58,690 beautifully and he actually came out 1101 00:45:04,559 --> 00:45:02,740 with his report where he he that's the 1102 00:45:06,240 --> 00:45:04,569 the the logo that was back there's this 1103 00:45:09,059 --> 00:45:06,250 wheel and all these hubs are pointing to 1104 00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:09,069 this core thing and and I said here's 1105 00:45:11,940 --> 00:45:10,690 all these things I listed him and he 1106 00:45:13,650 --> 00:45:11,950 came up with pretty much the exact same 1107 00:45:14,630 --> 00:45:13,660 list in the first book I listed these 1108 00:45:16,700 --> 00:45:14,640 things 1109 00:45:20,670 --> 00:45:16,710 synchronicity shamanic initiation 1110 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:20,680 meditation psychedelic it you know so 1111 00:45:24,300 --> 00:45:22,930 and I came as like he came up with about 1112 00:45:26,130 --> 00:45:24,310 seven I came up with about seven and 1113 00:45:28,710 --> 00:45:26,140 they're they've matched pretty well and 1114 00:45:30,359 --> 00:45:28,720 he he to have could one step further he 1115 00:45:32,220 --> 00:45:30,369 said that the center of this hub is 1116 00:45:34,740 --> 00:45:32,230 consciousness 1117 00:45:39,060 --> 00:45:34,750 but hold on cuz that kind of loses its 1118 00:45:41,460 --> 00:45:39,070 meaning in a way it consciousness is 1119 00:45:42,870 --> 00:45:41,470 really the whole thing it's a tough one 1120 00:45:45,359 --> 00:45:42,880 to get wrap your mind around that that's 1121 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:45,369 yeah it's it's so misunderstood in terms 1122 00:45:50,099 --> 00:45:48,010 of just back to you know the the kind of 1123 00:45:53,849 --> 00:45:50,109 skeptical mainstream science as we know 1124 00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:53,859 it I mean is it completely off the rails 1125 00:45:58,050 --> 00:45:55,690 with consciousness I mean they're still 1126 00:46:00,300 --> 00:45:58,060 in this kind of biological robot 1127 00:46:03,090 --> 00:46:00,310 meaningless universe up a phenomenon of 1128 00:46:05,070 --> 00:46:03,100 the brain kind of thing which is a road 1129 00:46:07,140 --> 00:46:05,080 completely to nowhere so it's like 1130 00:46:08,970 --> 00:46:07,150 consciousness can get really confusing 1131 00:46:11,490 --> 00:46:08,980 and then consciousness from a deeply 1132 00:46:13,410 --> 00:46:11,500 spiritual standpoint as some people are 1133 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:13,420 saying you know kind of an idealism 1134 00:46:17,790 --> 00:46:16,090 there's only consciousness and all the 1135 00:46:20,310 --> 00:46:17,800 stuff that you're playing with right 1136 00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:20,320 here and examining and mulling over is 1137 00:46:26,550 --> 00:46:24,570 just another kind of instantiation of 1138 00:46:28,530 --> 00:46:26,560 consciousness in a different form and 1139 00:46:30,540 --> 00:46:28,540 don't get too hung up about it just like 1140 00:46:32,190 --> 00:46:30,550 don't get too hung up about your past 1141 00:46:34,790 --> 00:46:32,200 life experience running the rest of that 1142 00:46:37,770 --> 00:46:34,800 it all flows back into one so 1143 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:37,780 consciousness doesn't get us any closer 1144 00:46:47,010 --> 00:46:41,410 what I wrestle with from Ray's work is 1145 00:46:50,130 --> 00:46:47,020 that we feel like maybe I feel like we 1146 00:46:53,580 --> 00:46:50,140 have our feet on the ground with 1147 00:46:55,170 --> 00:46:53,590 near-death experience science because we 1148 00:46:57,390 --> 00:46:55,180 can go look at the peer-reviewed 1149 00:46:59,609 --> 00:46:57,400 near-death experience science and we can 1150 00:47:01,890 --> 00:46:59,619 say gosh darn it that guy was dead by 1151 00:47:04,500 --> 00:47:01,900 every means we can measure it he was 1152 00:47:07,020 --> 00:47:04,510 outside his body looking down there's no 1153 00:47:11,310 --> 00:47:07,030 way that can happen and now he starts 1154 00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:11,320 having all these experiences and so then 1155 00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:13,570 for someone like Ray and the free 1156 00:47:19,770 --> 00:47:15,690 organization to come along and say you 1157 00:47:21,870 --> 00:47:19,780 know here's the problem guys the 1158 00:47:24,300 --> 00:47:21,880 near-death experience when we start 1159 00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:24,310 really asking people what it was like 1160 00:47:29,670 --> 00:47:26,890 and we start asking people from the 1161 00:47:31,710 --> 00:47:29,680 abductee experience what it was really 1162 00:47:33,599 --> 00:47:31,720 like and we start asking him well was 1163 00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:33,609 there the spiritual component of it and 1164 00:47:38,210 --> 00:47:35,050 did you feel a heightened sense of 1165 00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:38,220 awareness did you feel an improved 1166 00:47:44,270 --> 00:47:40,690 ability to cope you know all these 1167 00:47:45,599 --> 00:47:44,280 things start matching up in a way that 1168 00:47:49,019 --> 00:47:45,609 challenges 1169 00:47:50,970 --> 00:47:49,029 all our models you know I mean it's okay 1170 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:50,980 and actually it doesn't challenge too 1171 00:47:55,769 --> 00:47:52,930 much the shamanic model that kind of 1172 00:47:59,460 --> 00:47:55,779 stays intact but it does challenge 1173 00:48:01,650 --> 00:47:59,470 you know the rich Dolan Gordon white 1174 00:48:03,210 --> 00:48:01,660 interview like hey man these guys really 1175 00:48:05,579 --> 00:48:03,220 got the technology down and they 1176 00:48:07,349 --> 00:48:05,589 understand you know AI and they 1177 00:48:09,359 --> 00:48:07,359 understand genetic printing and they 1178 00:48:13,650 --> 00:48:09,369 understand the rest this is like it kind 1179 00:48:16,979 --> 00:48:13,660 of blows that away in a way that we 1180 00:48:18,479 --> 00:48:16,989 can't resolve it back to if God if these 1181 00:48:21,720 --> 00:48:18,489 people are having near-death experiences 1182 00:48:23,460 --> 00:48:21,730 in meeting God then I don't think God 1183 00:48:25,019 --> 00:48:23,470 cares too much if there is such a thing 1184 00:48:27,900 --> 00:48:25,029 but we have to fill in that blank I 1185 00:48:31,799 --> 00:48:27,910 don't think God cares about genetic 1186 00:48:33,749 --> 00:48:31,809 printing and AI and this unless you want 1187 00:48:36,749 --> 00:48:33,759 to go that whole way and say you know 1188 00:48:40,470 --> 00:48:36,759 that's that's what God is but it gets to 1189 00:48:42,390 --> 00:48:40,480 the crux of that issue in a way that 1190 00:48:45,779 --> 00:48:42,400 that I really want to kind of bring a 1191 00:48:47,460 --> 00:48:45,789 bring that to a point without you know 1192 00:48:50,479 --> 00:48:47,470 kind of jumping back to well it could be 1193 00:48:54,420 --> 00:48:53,279 well they've that you say you've let's 1194 00:48:55,859 --> 00:48:54,430 you've asked the big question right 1195 00:48:57,900 --> 00:48:55,869 that's like this is you know that they'd 1196 00:48:59,549 --> 00:48:57,910 still run togas and you know why are we 1197 00:49:00,930 --> 00:48:59,559 here what's the meaning of life and and 1198 00:49:02,339 --> 00:49:00,940 debated these things back in ancient 1199 00:49:04,049 --> 00:49:02,349 Greece and we're still struggling with 1200 00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:04,059 those same questions you know like what 1201 00:49:10,559 --> 00:49:06,730 boy you know that's my senses that that 1202 00:49:13,170 --> 00:49:10,569 this is any thinking person and I and 1203 00:49:16,319 --> 00:49:13,180 I'm gonna be bold here I mean you you if 1204 00:49:17,789 --> 00:49:16,329 I those there's 700 pages of owl stuff 1205 00:49:19,109 --> 00:49:17,799 you put one book on top of another it's 1206 00:49:21,450 --> 00:49:19,119 about 700 pages you gotta wade through 1207 00:49:24,660 --> 00:49:21,460 and I still don't have a good conclusion 1208 00:49:27,390 --> 00:49:24,670 but but what I can say is these issues 1209 00:49:29,609 --> 00:49:27,400 bring up the big question they bring up 1210 00:49:35,039 --> 00:49:29,619 you know why are we here what does it 1211 00:49:39,450 --> 00:49:35,049 mean where are we going and I didn't 1212 00:49:42,779 --> 00:49:39,460 expect that going into this so you know 1213 00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:42,789 you asked the big big big question you 1214 00:49:48,859 --> 00:49:46,410 know what is how does this relate to I 1215 00:49:50,690 --> 00:49:48,869 mean I would I would take a step 1216 00:49:53,329 --> 00:49:50,700 I can avoid the word consciousness and 1217 00:49:56,450 --> 00:49:53,339 say the human experience and I mean the 1218 00:50:01,730 --> 00:49:56,460 not that I mean the essence of what it 1219 00:50:07,279 --> 00:50:01,740 means to be a like a noble human trying 1220 00:50:09,730 --> 00:50:07,289 to do something good and I think that 1221 00:50:12,019 --> 00:50:09,740 you I mean the people who have had oh 1222 00:50:15,980 --> 00:50:12,029 there's someone there's a researcher she 1223 00:50:17,900 --> 00:50:15,990 used the term the trauma of 1224 00:50:19,489 --> 00:50:17,910 enlightenment yes 1225 00:50:21,559 --> 00:50:19,499 back from a near-death experience that's 1226 00:50:23,269 --> 00:50:21,569 a that's a the trauma of enlightenment 1227 00:50:26,059 --> 00:50:23,279 so that's so I I'm not saying I'm 1228 00:50:28,849 --> 00:50:26,069 enlightened but I am saying I have had 1229 00:50:32,210 --> 00:50:28,859 to struggle with a trauma and it has 1230 00:50:33,499 --> 00:50:32,220 forced me like something crumbled some 1231 00:50:35,599 --> 00:50:33,509 other part of me had to crumble away and 1232 00:50:38,870 --> 00:50:35,609 this other heart had to like rise up and 1233 00:50:40,910 --> 00:50:38,880 fill that empty space and I feel that 1234 00:50:45,349 --> 00:50:40,920 this other part is better ended up then 1235 00:50:47,870 --> 00:50:45,359 than the husk that fell away crucially 1236 00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:47,880 zona pushes one point one step further 1237 00:50:51,739 --> 00:50:48,930 because I haven't heard you talk about 1238 00:50:56,450 --> 00:50:51,749 this and this is very very interesting 1239 00:50:59,380 --> 00:50:56,460 to me speculation on your part what do 1240 00:51:02,089 --> 00:50:59,390 you if we make these kind of false 1241 00:51:05,539 --> 00:51:02,099 dichotomies and we say the near-death 1242 00:51:09,410 --> 00:51:05,549 experience is a spiritual experience and 1243 00:51:13,519 --> 00:51:09,420 we extend that to say that means by God 1244 00:51:14,630 --> 00:51:13,529 it's God experience right and then so 1245 00:51:17,509 --> 00:51:14,640 we're just going to draw these really 1246 00:51:19,190 --> 00:51:17,519 kind of magic marker kind of lines that 1247 00:51:21,559 --> 00:51:19,200 are fake but and then we go over to the 1248 00:51:24,170 --> 00:51:21,569 UFO experience and we go David Jacobs 1249 00:51:27,769 --> 00:51:24,180 you know Hey Baby this is abduction 1250 00:51:29,720 --> 00:51:27,779 abduction you know and the clothes are 1251 00:51:32,420 --> 00:51:29,730 different it you didn't consent to this 1252 00:51:35,359 --> 00:51:32,430 and all the rest of this but what 1253 00:51:37,910 --> 00:51:35,369 happens when we peer into that like Ray 1254 00:51:40,670 --> 00:51:37,920 Hernandez is done and the data starts 1255 00:51:43,190 --> 00:51:40,680 aligning and we have to deal with the 1256 00:51:47,450 --> 00:51:43,200 reality that there's a technology there 1257 00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:47,460 but the technology is approaching the 1258 00:51:53,059 --> 00:51:51,690 spiritual that's a big one how do you I 1259 00:51:55,089 --> 00:51:53,069 know you're wrestling with it because 1260 00:51:58,339 --> 00:51:55,099 we're all wrestling with it how do you 1261 00:52:00,049 --> 00:51:58,349 how do you resolve that what a what are 1262 00:52:05,870 --> 00:52:00,059 the implications of that for you 1263 00:52:10,410 --> 00:52:08,010 you asked me earlier what's my 1264 00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:10,420 responsibility in all this so my 1265 00:52:13,980 --> 00:52:11,770 responsibility and all this is to 1266 00:52:15,570 --> 00:52:13,990 proceed forward with as much honesty and 1267 00:52:16,740 --> 00:52:15,580 integrity you know like when I could 1268 00:52:18,450 --> 00:52:16,750 late was a couple typos and a couple 1269 00:52:19,890 --> 00:52:18,460 think people got misquoted it broke my 1270 00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:19,900 heart in the book right so that's just 1271 00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:21,970 me as a person feeling bad that but I 1272 00:52:30,750 --> 00:52:24,810 these stories I care deeply about these 1273 00:52:32,910 --> 00:52:30,760 stories these owl and UFO stories how 1274 00:52:35,790 --> 00:52:32,920 does that transfer so people are having 1275 00:52:37,410 --> 00:52:35,800 I use a term magical I got no problem 1276 00:52:39,420 --> 00:52:37,420 saying it's a magical experience people 1277 00:52:41,820 --> 00:52:39,430 had a magic experience because I can't 1278 00:52:43,140 --> 00:52:41,830 say whether it was a psychic experience 1279 00:52:44,970 --> 00:52:43,150 or whether it was done through 1280 00:52:46,650 --> 00:52:44,980 technology certain things sure blue 1281 00:52:48,540 --> 00:52:46,660 beams shot from outer space goes into 1282 00:52:51,060 --> 00:52:48,550 the owl comes out of the Owls eyes and 1283 00:52:54,420 --> 00:52:51,070 zap someone that could be technology or 1284 00:52:59,150 --> 00:52:54,430 that could be a mystical metaphoric you 1285 00:53:00,840 --> 00:52:59,160 know I can't get stuck on the on the 1286 00:53:04,020 --> 00:53:00,850 meta labels 1287 00:53:06,300 --> 00:53:04,030 I'm much more nuanced and I'm my goal in 1288 00:53:08,820 --> 00:53:06,310 my hope and my that what really floats 1289 00:53:10,350 --> 00:53:08,830 my boat let's say he's like you know 1290 00:53:13,910 --> 00:53:10,360 talking to these folks you know maybe 1291 00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:13,920 you talk to UFO abductees on the phone 1292 00:53:19,620 --> 00:53:17,770 they're gonna cry that's like I get how 1293 00:53:22,260 --> 00:53:19,630 many phone calls have I had where people 1294 00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:22,270 sob is I mean let's it's normal right 1295 00:53:25,950 --> 00:53:23,650 people are unloading people are gushing 1296 00:53:29,490 --> 00:53:25,960 people are struggling with this they 1297 00:53:31,950 --> 00:53:29,500 have so so the I say the deeper reality 1298 00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:31,960 I'm consciousness like I don't can't 1299 00:53:35,820 --> 00:53:33,690 wrap my mind around consciousness I can 1300 00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:35,830 better wrap my mind around the term 1301 00:53:43,230 --> 00:53:39,010 deeper reality wherever we are we're in 1302 00:53:45,300 --> 00:53:43,240 this place wherever the they are the 1303 00:53:48,660 --> 00:53:45,310 little spirit gnomes that control the 1304 00:53:50,910 --> 00:53:48,670 owls or the or the or the flying saucer 1305 00:53:52,710 --> 00:53:50,920 that's parked in some sort of mystical 1306 00:53:56,190 --> 00:53:52,720 third dimension or fifth dimension right 1307 00:54:00,630 --> 00:53:56,200 so there's a they can peer in and 1308 00:54:01,890 --> 00:54:00,640 influence us with these wild experiences 1309 00:54:03,780 --> 00:54:01,900 and that was the point of the second 1310 00:54:07,940 --> 00:54:03,790 book was to tell these stories in their 1311 00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:07,950 totality and people are people 1312 00:54:11,359 --> 00:54:09,930 I have a hard time with this now I'm 1313 00:54:13,490 --> 00:54:11,369 sort of spinning all over the map and 1314 00:54:15,650 --> 00:54:13,500 kind of riffing here and I in it and I 1315 00:54:21,610 --> 00:54:15,660 rein me back in because I may not get to 1316 00:54:26,660 --> 00:54:24,800 we're dealing with a human experience 1317 00:54:29,750 --> 00:54:26,670 that has been here throughout the ages 1318 00:54:33,710 --> 00:54:29,760 and that the there's owl mythology in 1319 00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:33,720 place and that mythology has been there 1320 00:54:39,230 --> 00:54:35,610 right since we crawled out of the caves 1321 00:54:42,590 --> 00:54:39,240 it's with us now we're now materialists 1322 00:54:44,060 --> 00:54:42,600 and we you know we have scientists that 1323 00:54:46,250 --> 00:54:44,070 say oh no it doesn't work like that even 1324 00:54:47,720 --> 00:54:46,260 though even though the people were 1325 00:54:49,340 --> 00:54:47,730 having these experiences are basically 1326 00:54:51,590 --> 00:54:49,350 having the same experiences in my 1327 00:54:53,330 --> 00:54:51,600 opinion that created this ancient 1328 00:54:55,220 --> 00:54:53,340 mythology so what we're dealing with in 1329 00:54:57,710 --> 00:54:55,230 this owl stuff and I'll say the UFO 1330 00:54:59,270 --> 00:54:57,720 stuff is and I'm not out-of-body 1331 00:55:01,040 --> 00:54:59,280 experience and all this stuff is nothing 1332 00:55:02,660 --> 00:55:01,050 new it's been happening all throughout 1333 00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:02,670 human history and it is the core of our 1334 00:55:12,470 --> 00:55:07,530 of our it's imbued in us somehow like a 1335 00:55:14,930 --> 00:55:12,480 like a meta archetype in us ok our guest 1336 00:55:18,140 --> 00:55:14,940 again has been my Cleveland do check out 1337 00:55:20,060 --> 00:55:18,150 his great books the first one the 1338 00:55:22,010 --> 00:55:20,070 messengers I have up on the screen if 1339 00:55:25,370 --> 00:55:22,020 you're watching YouTube the second one 1340 00:55:28,190 --> 00:55:25,380 stories from the messengers mic take a 1341 00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:28,200 minute and tell folks about those two 1342 00:55:32,690 --> 00:55:30,450 books what the differences are and also 1343 00:55:35,510 --> 00:55:32,700 about what else is going on with you you 1344 00:55:37,730 --> 00:55:35,520 do do some speaking and engagements and 1345 00:55:40,310 --> 00:55:37,740 you do have I get think you're getting 1346 00:55:42,740 --> 00:55:40,320 back into you're starting to fire up the 1347 00:55:46,340 --> 00:55:42,750 old blog as well so tell folks about all 1348 00:55:48,020 --> 00:55:46,350 that stuff so the first book was 1349 00:55:50,330 --> 00:55:48,030 published a couple years ago a little 1350 00:55:53,060 --> 00:55:50,340 over two years ago and that book was the 1351 00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:53,070 culmination of about it's hard to really 1352 00:55:57,710 --> 00:55:54,690 pin it down but getting close to ten 1353 00:55:59,270 --> 00:55:57,720 years of research and I'll think 1354 00:56:02,420 --> 00:55:59,280 probably around nine years of research 1355 00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:02,430 on the other thing and so I try to make 1356 00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:04,170 I argue in that book that there's a 1357 00:56:07,790 --> 00:56:06,330 connection between UFOs and owls whether 1358 00:56:09,350 --> 00:56:07,800 I'm successful or not you read the book 1359 00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:09,360 and you filled by the end I don't know 1360 00:56:16,100 --> 00:56:10,650 whether all convinced you're not the 1361 00:56:16,470 --> 00:56:16,110 second book was wisdom and I'll say I 1362 00:56:19,950 --> 00:56:16,480 was 1363 00:56:22,050 --> 00:56:19,960 started to write that book and I in the 1364 00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:22,060 act of writing it was a was a five year 1365 00:56:29,250 --> 00:56:26,770 process of self therapy and the second 1366 00:56:31,530 --> 00:56:29,260 book was I felt bad because it to make 1367 00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:31,540 my point I had to hide to eliminate and 1368 00:56:36,420 --> 00:56:34,690 Nix and kind of boil down people's 1369 00:56:38,940 --> 00:56:36,430 stories to just a few sentences or just 1370 00:56:41,070 --> 00:56:38,950 a few paragraphs where these stories 1371 00:56:42,900 --> 00:56:41,080 were epic these were novels waiting to 1372 00:56:45,090 --> 00:56:42,910 be written so the second book is 19 1373 00:56:47,940 --> 00:56:45,100 chapters each chapter is a very detailed 1374 00:56:49,470 --> 00:56:47,950 story that allows these stories to be 1375 00:56:51,690 --> 00:56:49,480 told and what I consider a much more 1376 00:56:53,340 --> 00:56:51,700 complete form as I needed to write that 1377 00:56:54,900 --> 00:56:53,350 book because it broke my heart that I 1378 00:57:00,090 --> 00:56:54,910 had to edit so much out in the first 1379 00:57:01,609 --> 00:57:00,100 book so the and it's it's so the second 1380 00:57:05,550 --> 00:57:01,619 book reads like a book of short stories 1381 00:57:07,980 --> 00:57:05,560 and if you want to get a hold of me you 1382 00:57:09,270 --> 00:57:07,990 can google as you said earlier UFOs owls 1383 00:57:10,650 --> 00:57:09,280 I'm the first thing that comes up you 1384 00:57:11,910 --> 00:57:10,660 can go to my website I've got a couple 1385 00:57:15,330 --> 00:57:11,920 different websites some of them are just 1386 00:57:17,849 --> 00:57:15,340 book promotion type things but and my my 1387 00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:17,859 main blog is hidden experience blog 1388 00:57:24,359 --> 00:57:22,090 spot.com and I have been you can dig 1389 00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:24,369 through there it's it's I've got it's 1390 00:57:28,710 --> 00:57:26,770 getting on ten years of stuff that's in 1391 00:57:30,780 --> 00:57:28,720 there and there's a lot in there but I 1392 00:57:32,190 --> 00:57:30,790 also did for six years I was very 1393 00:57:34,349 --> 00:57:32,200 dedicated to doing a podcast I 1394 00:57:37,620 --> 00:57:34,359 interviewed a lot of folks and those are 1395 00:57:39,270 --> 00:57:37,630 all archived there and then and I try to 1396 00:57:41,190 --> 00:57:39,280 answer everyone's email I used to I say 1397 00:57:42,990 --> 00:57:41,200 I used to get about one email a day now 1398 00:57:44,460 --> 00:57:43,000 it's about three a day and that's been 1399 00:57:46,140 --> 00:57:44,470 my if I don't get back to you right away 1400 00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:46,150 you can give my permission to bug me and 1401 00:57:52,650 --> 00:57:49,450 pester me that's been all absolutely 1402 00:57:55,470 --> 00:57:52,660 awesome reconnecting with you and having 1403 00:57:56,970 --> 00:57:55,480 you on and we'll just have to stay in 1404 00:57:58,400 --> 00:57:56,980 better touch it's been too many years 1405 00:58:00,660 --> 00:57:58,410 you've made such a tremendous 1406 00:58:04,830 --> 00:58:00,670 contribution here and like we said we 1407 00:58:08,099 --> 00:58:04,840 don't know how or why but you're the oh 1408 00:58:09,599 --> 00:58:08,109 god certainly the owl guy at this point 1409 00:58:13,170 --> 00:58:09,609 and I'm and I take that responsibility 1410 00:58:16,410 --> 00:58:13,180 very seriously awesome like thanks again 1411 00:58:18,570 --> 00:58:16,420 thank you so much so thanks for watching 1412 00:58:21,390 --> 00:58:18,580 this video if it wasn't really a video 1413 00:58:23,099 --> 00:58:21,400 but just an audio stored as a video well 1414 00:58:25,140 --> 00:58:23,109 I apologize but there's more videos out 1415 00:58:27,090 --> 00:58:25,150 there as well but please check out the 1416 00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:27,100 skeptical web site you can see it here 1417 00:58:30,150 --> 00:58:28,450 we cover a lot of different stuff you 1418 00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:30,160 might be interested in 1419 00:58:35,460 --> 00:58:32,650 relating to controversial science and 1420 00:58:38,670 --> 00:58:35,470 spirituality a lot of shows up there 1421 00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:38,680 over 350 of them are so all free all 1422 00:58:42,890 --> 00:58:41,650 available for download so do check it